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#11
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NTSB final report on Hendrick crash
Maule Driver wrote:
: It's a KLN909b GPS I guess. Granted that the crew knew how to use it : and granted that the dating of the database had no impact, the cause : seems to be a loss of situational awareness due in some part to misuse : of the GPS. : It seems that they 'half used' the GPS for this non-GPS approach and : then 'over relied' on the GPS over use of the radio aids. That is, they : setup the GPS to lead them to the FAF but neglected to press the hold : button before reaching the IAF for the hold. No problem with that as : long as you realize what you are doing and continue to use the DME, ADF, : and RMI for identification of the various fixes. : I'll bet this crew could have turned off the GPS and nailed this : approach 1,000 times in a row without incident, or conversersely used : the GPS exclusively with the Loc and NDB out of service and done the same. Unless this an updated version of the NTSB report, it's been out for a few months now. IIRC they conclude two problems: - Using the GPS for DME info and having it auto-sequence without their knowledge. Exiting the hold at a significantly higher altitude than the entry altitude didn't help either. - Incorrect missed approach procedure. I think they concluded that had they executed the missed as published, the turn would have maintained terrain clearance. Very unfortunate and personally disturbing to me. I flew the LOC/DME into my home airport of BCB the *previous day* in identical weather... only about 40 miles to the north of the accident. I broke out in about 500' and 1 mile. -Cory -- ************************************************** *********************** * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering * * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * ************************************************** *********************** |
#12
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NTSB final report on Hendrick crash
"Maule Driver" wrote: Using the Garmin on such an approach to function in place of the ADF and DME, I would have programmed it similarly. However, flying the approach would require switching it from 'auto-sequence' to 'hold' just before passing BALES for the holding pattern turn. That would keep BALES as the next waypoint. Once inbound to BALES, I would have switched it to auto=sequence. Does the KLN 90B function similarly? That is, is there a Hold switch? Yes. It has an OBS mode. -- Dan C172RG at BFM |
#13
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NTSB final report on Hendrick crash
Maule Driver wrote:
Jim Macklin wrote: He had a GPS, but as a high time commuter pilot in a BE1900, he didn't know how to use it. Their GPS was not current for IFR, but they were using it. When they crossed the LOM, the GPS autocycled to the MAP WPT and the crew just did a turn about a point and flew at the IAP altitude past the airport and died. I'm not familiar with the KLN 90B but fly a Garmin 300XL which I believe is of similar vintage and function. In addition, my single CDI is wired so that it would auto-connect to the NAV radio when tuned to a LOC signal. Using the Garmin on such an approach to function in place of the ADF and DME, I would have programmed it similarly. However, flying the approach would require switching it from 'auto-sequence' to 'hold' just before passing BALES for the holding pattern turn. That would keep BALES as the next waypoint. Once inbound to BALES, I would have switched it to auto=sequence. Does the KLN 90B function similarly? That is, is there a Hold switch? I can't speak for a KLN 90B, but we have an 89B in our club Arrow. It doesn't have a hold switch, but if I understand your description above of the Garmin hold function, it sounds like the OBS function on the King. You must put the unit in OBS mode prior to making a course reversal for a procedure turn. You then switch back to auto sequence mode when approaching the FAF. I haven't yet flown enough with the GPS to feel comfortable using it for an approach in actual. I'm not flying enough these days to stay proficient with it and I find that if I don't fly it at least once a month, I forget the subtleties. I think a moving map GPS would be the cat's meow, but the 89B style are terrible, in my opinion. I can go a year between flying an ILS or VOR approach and still do a credible approach the first time. I just had an ICC last Friday and I hadn't flown an approach in more than a year. I was a little rough on the first VOR approach, but the second one was spot on as were the two ILS I then flew. The GPS is just not intuitive at all to use and takes way too much set-up, cross-checking and effort in my opinion. It is amazing how complicated they made these devices given how simple a typical ILS or VOR approach is. Matt |
#14
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NTSB final report on Hendrick crash
On 11/13/06 14:24, Matt Whiting wrote:
Maule Driver wrote: Jim Macklin wrote: He had a GPS, but as a high time commuter pilot in a BE1900, he didn't know how to use it. Their GPS was not current for IFR, but they were using it. When they crossed the LOM, the GPS autocycled to the MAP WPT and the crew just did a turn about a point and flew at the IAP altitude past the airport and died. I'm not familiar with the KLN 90B but fly a Garmin 300XL which I believe is of similar vintage and function. In addition, my single CDI is wired so that it would auto-connect to the NAV radio when tuned to a LOC signal. Using the Garmin on such an approach to function in place of the ADF and DME, I would have programmed it similarly. However, flying the approach would require switching it from 'auto-sequence' to 'hold' just before passing BALES for the holding pattern turn. That would keep BALES as the next waypoint. Once inbound to BALES, I would have switched it to auto=sequence. Does the KLN 90B function similarly? That is, is there a Hold switch? I can't speak for a KLN 90B, but we have an 89B in our club Arrow. It doesn't have a hold switch, but if I understand your description above of the Garmin hold function, it sounds like the OBS function on the King. You must put the unit in OBS mode prior to making a course reversal for a procedure turn. To be precise, you need to put it into OBS mode before you reach the holding/FA fix. If you reach the fix first, the box will assume you are proceeding inbound and will auto-sequence to the next fix. You then switch back to auto sequence mode when approaching the FAF. I haven't yet flown enough with the GPS to feel comfortable using it for an approach in actual. I'm not flying enough these days to stay proficient with it and I find that if I don't fly it at least once a month, I forget the subtleties. I think a moving map GPS would be the cat's meow, but the 89B style are terrible, in my opinion. I can go a year between flying an ILS or VOR approach and still do a credible approach the first time. I just had an ICC last Friday and I hadn't flown an approach in more than a year. I was a little rough on the first VOR approach, but the second one was spot on as were the two ILS I then flew. The GPS is just not intuitive at all to use and takes way too much set-up, cross-checking and effort in my opinion. It is amazing how complicated they made these devices given how simple a typical ILS or VOR approach is. Agree 100%. Each vendor seems to have it's own way of doing things too, making it hard to transition from one to the other. I suppose I'll get used to them after a few years... Matt -- Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane Cal Aggie Flying Farmers Sacramento, CA |
#15
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NTSB final report on Hendrick crash
The NTSB said he did not properly fly the approach, that
even though the aircraft was not approved to use the GPS IFR, the crew obviously was using the GPS to find the LOM and used it to, in error do the hold, which is why they flew the approach to their deaths. The crew had just flown over the LOM and got lost while in a turn. Read the report, maybe the pilot was skilled, but he certainly did not exercise good judgment on the flight. "Beavis" wrote in message ... | In article , | "Jim Macklin" wrote: | | He had a GPS, but as a high time commuter pilot in a BE1900, | he didn't know how to use it. | | As someone who flew many hours with the captain of that flight, at the | airline that flew those 1900s, I can say without a doubt that you have | no idea what you're talking about. | | Here's a cockpit shot of one of the 1900s he flew: | http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0585758/L/ | | I'll leave it as an exercise for you to identify the device sitting next | to the copilot's RMI. |
#16
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NTSB final report on Hendrick crash
In article ,
"Jim Macklin" wrote: The NTSB said he did not properly fly the approach, that even though the aircraft was not approved to use the GPS IFR, the crew obviously was using the GPS to find the LOM and used it to, in error do the hold... Oh, I wholeheartedly agree they screwed up and used the GPS improperly. My issue was with this statement: | He had a GPS, but as a high time commuter pilot in a | BE1900, he didn't know how to use it. And I maintain that's a ridiculous statement, since I've seen first-hand he knew very well how to use it, and *practiced* it during his time as a 1900 commuter pilot. Why he didn't apply that knowledge properly that day, we'll never know. But your suggestion that 1900 time somehow negates GPS knowledge is a strange one. |
#17
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NTSB final report on Hendrick crash
Beavis wrote:
/snip/ Here's a cockpit shot of one of the 1900s he flew: http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0585758/L/ /snip/ On a completely unrelated note, I see there is a vacuum suction gage on the instrument panel. What is this for? Apparently all of the "gyro" instruments are electronic. Is this strictly for the de-ice boots? Happy Flying! Scott Skylane |
#18
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NTSB final report on Hendrick crash
"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
... PDF from NTSB http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2006/AAB0601.pdf One potential "External Pressure" on this flight that many people may not be aware of is that Ricky Henderson (the team owner's son who died on that flight) was slated to work as a spotter for one of the Hendrick cars. By rule, you can not grid your car if your spotter is not in position on the roof of the grandstand. IIRC, the Cup race that day had a 1pm Green Flag so that suggests to me they were running late. Even with a helo standing by at MTV to ferry everyone from the airport to the track, they'd have been cutting it close. Doesn't excuse the way in which the crew botched the approach, but it might (IMO) suggest perhaps some "Get There-itis." Just $0.02 worth from someone who works on the NASCAR tour. Jay Beckman PP-ASEL Chandler, AZ Technician, NASCAR on FOX / NBC / TNT |
#19
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NTSB final report on Hendrick crash
The KLN 90B gps has a small moving map in its panel display. The NTSB
report alluded to the standard practice was for a track up orientation. Given that the moving map screen is fairly short vertically, maybe half its width, in the track up presentation it may not have been as obvious that they had overflown their waypoints... Of course, from an armchair quarterbacking perspective, almost all of my inflight GPS experience has been behind King products, the KLN 89B, -90B and KLX-135, and didn't seem to have a problem with the display or depictions. The display was also not on the center console between the pilots, facing up (as opposed to on the main panel). Dave Peter wrote: "Jim Macklin" wrote PDF from NTSB http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2006/AAB0601.pdf Having read a fair few reports of aircraft flown by professional crew, perhaps commercially, it amazes me how many do not have what one would call a moving map GPS. Unless I am missing something obvious, this sort of thing should not happen if the pilot has a picture showing his position relative to the rest of the place. |
#20
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NTSB final report on Hendrick crash
Maule Driver wrote:
Jim Macklin wrote: I'm not familiar with the KLN 90B but fly a Garmin 300XL which I believe is of similar vintage and function. In addition, my single CDI is wired so that it would auto-connect to the NAV radio when tuned to a LOC signal. The NTSB indicated that the Pilot's CDI was set up to display NAV even when GPS was selected on the annunciator. This is typically accomplished using a multipole relay (like a NAT-80? i think) to enable the NAV override - its not something switchable on the King Box, its done downstream. (just fyi.. thats all) Using the Garmin on such an approach to function in place of the ADF and DME, I would have programmed it similarly. However, flying the approach would require switching it from 'auto-sequence' to 'hold' just before passing BALES for the holding pattern turn. That would keep BALES as the next waypoint. Once inbound to BALES, I would have switched it to auto=sequence. Does the KLN 90B function similarly? That is, is there a Hold switch? I believe the "OBS" button is used to suspend waypoint sequencing in the King series, but not positive. Sounds like the guys had the ILS tuned, which displayed on the CDI.. (armchair speculatio) BUT had the waypoints entered manually in the GPS and then used the flashing waypoint light in the PIC's scan to indicate when to step down (cheating essentially...).. they'd prolly done it many times before (without a PT).. and this time nobody bothered to look down onto the center console and VERIFY which waypoint it was annunciating (let alone fly the approach solely as published using LOC/NAV and DME indications) The profile seems to indicate they flew the approach with descents one waypoint out of sequence.. With the database being out of date, it should not have permitted real GPS approach modes (including a GPS overlay of the Loc/Vor approach.. so the crew had to have manually entered the points on their flight plan. |
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