Powerflarm's unknown effect on the first contests in US

On Sun, 09 Jan 2011 01:04:10 +0100, Peter Scholz wrote:

Am 08.01.2011 15:28, wrote:
PowerFlarm will be more capable than Flarm units in use in Europe.

Do you have any details about the additional capabilities?

Essentially PCAS and data-out for a transponder with squitter.
See http://www.powerflarm.com/


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Wow - a complete inability to comprehend. Explains why you're against
a new instrument in the cockpit.

-John

On Jan 8, 5:07 pm, hretting wrote:
Yes it would great if everyone had your experience and smarts with
implementing a , what, transponder?, are you kidding. You're comparing
a Flarm with a transponder. And of course you have TCAS in your glider
too! We're talking contest here, not a local jaunt around the area
that encounters a jet, which happens during all your flights, right?
And Mike, I never wrote that Flarm was a bad idea. Go back and read my
thread again. Brillant come back.
We're talking another distraction to the average racer that without
some planning and forethought, could lead to a chain of events not
desired.
The competition committee did good I believe in slowing things (Flarm)
down.
By the way, I have a transponder in my glider too.
R

On Jan 8, 8:46*pm, chris wrote:
On Jan 8, 7:17*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:

Where do you get that "Flarmers" will be able to leach better than non-
flarmers. Really? Kindly explain how that will work. I've never seen
that fear raised in any discussion of Flarm.

The whole leaching question is a tempest in a teapot. *If it bothers
you, turn on Stealth mode and you can't be leached (but will still get
collision warning).
Kirk
66

Kirk,
My understanding is that if stealth mode is off then a pilot can see
the climb rate of other flarm equipped gliders in the area: *One way
to do it is using Winpilot - see this from the winpilot site:
"FLARM Support: Added the ability to track several other gliders in
the vicinity that also carry FLARM on board. WinPilot can now show
visually the position of the other gliders, their bearing, and also
indicate weather or not they are climbing, and if so, what their
current climb rate is."
see the graphic on the main page.http://www.winpilot.com/images4/News2.gif

seeyou mobile does the same as do other systems:http://gliderpilot.org/files/FlarmFl...rformance/SeeY...

So is it a fair competition if in early 2011 part of the fleet is
allowed to share remote thermal sensing data?
Like shooting fish in a barrel, not a contest. *To me it appears that
we are allowing team flying - with good displays and coordination 2 or
more pilots could team fly a whole contest season and never have to
talk on the radio. *So maybe I turn my stealth mode on to prevent
others from getting my data but that won't stop other pilots from team
flying via flarm.

I do not understand why we would introduce it "unrestricted" for
2011. *I realize we/Rules Committee do[es] not have familiarity with
the system, but other countries do, can we learn from them rather than
risk as much chaos? * Andy posted the UK 2010 flarm rules earlier in
this discussion, to me it makes sense for us to start off with the
stealth mode required too, that gets the anti-collision function and
reduces the data sharing issues. This is my request to the Rules
Committee.

To Henry's point i do think there is some risk, especially early on of
pilots focusing on their "show me where to find lift radar screen"
that they don't look out the window for the non flarm guys as much.
Ironically could be more dangerous. * * omg I am agreeing with Henry
on something? ;-)

Chris

If seeing other competitors climb rates is a competitive advantage
then that's an additional incentive for everyone to equip with
PowerFLARM. That is exactly where we would have been with MIRA except
that for the 2011 racing reason it's still voluntary and no pilot will
lose a contest day to a FLARM failure.

Andy (GY)

On Jan 8, 8:46*pm, chris wrote:

Kirk,
My understanding is that if stealth mode is off then a pilot can see
the climb rate of other flarm equipped gliders in the area: *

So maybe I turn my stealth mode on to prevent
others from getting my data but that won't stop other pilots from team
flying via flarm.

Chris

That's the whole point: I you are worried someone will leech (got it
right this time!) your thermal off FLARM, then you select Stealth mode
and no one gets your climb info - and you don't get anyone else's
climb info. But you ALL still get collision warning.

So if all the hotshots are worried about team flying and leeching by
newbies - all it takes is for them to get together in the bar before
the race and agree on selecting Stealth mode. If anyone cheats and
doesn't stealth-up, he still won't see anything unless others also
cheat - and anyone with a Flarm could momentarily deselect Stealth
mode and possibly catch the cheaters.

Sure, people could team fly if they agreed ahead of time - but
remember the flarm logger records the mode, so the probability of
getting caught is pretty high - because anyone can at any time see
that you are not in Stealth mode!

Guys, you are overthinking this issue. At the ranges Flarm will show
other gliders, you either are going to already see it cranking and
banking in a boomer, or by the time you get there the bubble is
gone....

Everyone just take a deep breath, relax, and let's go out and have
fun.

Kirk
66

On Jan 8, 6:03*pm, hretting wrote:

Leeching was brought up by an earlier thread and I
responded to it.

Sorry. That was a joke - it's what the winking emoticon means.

The climb rate displays in WinPilot/SeeYou do look pretty
interesting. We'll have to see how much they really turn out to be
useful - or a distraction. It's one thing to be able to see a glider
with a good climb rate on a screen and quite another to be able to get
to the indicated location, find the thermal and actually achieve the
same climb rate.

The only way to know is to try it. I think the RC approach for 2011 is
a responsible and balanced one given both the safety potential and the
uncertainties. I for one would feel pretty bad if we lost another
pilot having ignored the opportunity to do something significant.

Stealth Mode on/off will, I suspect, be a major decision to make as we
get going. I'd encourage the RC to collect feedback contest-by-contest
so we can learn and adapt with each contest experience.

9B

Am 09.01.2011 13:14, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sun, 09 Jan 2011 01:04:10 +0100, Peter Scholz wrote:

Am 08.01.2011 15:28, wrote:
PowerFlarm will be more capable than Flarm units in use in Europe.

Do you have any details about the additional capabilities?

Essentially PCAS and data-out for a transponder with squitter.
See http://www.powerflarm.com/


I'm aware of that, but what would be the "sporting implication" of that
additional information, as mentioned by UH?
--
Peter Scholz
ASW24 JE

On Jan 8, 6:16*am, Tom wrote:
There should be a concern about "unintended consequences."

The implied requirement of having FLARM may cause a number of pilots
(especially senior pilots) to stop flying contests because they only
plan to actively fly in competitions for a few more years.

They have to decide if spending the money for a FLARM device at this
late stage of their flying career is really worth it.

Having loaner FLARM units will help in this regard, and people like
myself will be willing to offer their units for competitions they are
not going to fly in, but some people will not take advantage of a
loaner program.

There certainly will be a discussion about this subject at the
upcoming "Seniors" contest, and the special seniors contest rules
committee will have this on the agenda.

Tom Knauff

Tom, that's probably a concern. However, I remember "old timers"
leaving competition when radios were installed claiming it wasn't
possible to fly a glider safely and talk on a radio at the same time.
They predicted glider parts raining from the sky as pilots collided
while fumbling with a radio. It was a decision many of them
regretted.

On Jan 9, 10:18*am, Andy wrote:

If seeing other competitors climb rates is a competitive advantage
then that's *an additional incentive for everyone to equip with
PowerFLARM.
Andy (GY)

So at what point do we just call them "cross country cooperative fly
togethers" and remove the words competition and contest?

The ideal setup is a duo discus with large format computer screens,
the guy in back can just operate the computers and track all the other
gliders and navigate to each marked thermal.

Chris

On Jan 9, 11:16*am, Peter Scholz wrote:
Am 09.01.2011 13:14, Martin Gregorie wrote:

On Sun, 09 Jan 2011 01:04:10 +0100, Peter Scholz wrote:

Am 08.01.2011 15:28, wrote:
PowerFlarm will be more capable than Flarm units in use in Europe.

Do you have any details about the additional capabilities?

Essentially PCAS and data-out for a transponder with squitter.
Seehttp://www.powerflarm.com/

I'm aware of that, but what would be the "sporting implication" of that
additional information, as mentioned by UH?
--
Peter Scholz
ASW24 JE

Look at the web site for LS8000. One feature is the use of Flarm info
to identify a marker ("target") in the distance, get his climb info,
and calculate your arrival height at his thermal. This, and other
potential developments of these principles(display of the "better"
target to chase), have quite significant implications on the character
of gliding competition in my view. I seem to remember, but haven't
confirmed, that PowerFlarm will have greater range than current Flarm.
UH

On Jan 9, 9:57*am, chris wrote:
On Jan 9, 10:18*am, Andy wrote:

If seeing other competitors climb rates is a competitive advantage
then that's *an additional incentive for everyone to equip with
PowerFLARM.
Andy (GY)

So at what point do we just call them "cross country cooperative fly
togethers" and remove the words competition and contest?

The ideal setup is a duo discus with large format computer screens,
the guy in back can just operate the computers and track all the other
gliders and navigate to each marked thermal.

Chris

That happens today. I've been SN-10 operator, navigator, thermal
scout, glider spotter and tactician as a passenger. With an
experienced back-seater it can be a big advantage - adding a Flarm
seems a small incremental bump in capability compared to the value of
adding a good back-seater in the first place.

I will be very interested to see if the concern about Flarm taking
most of the skill out of contest flying comes to pass. Good pilots
today are skilled at finding fast climbing gliders within a few miles,
just using their eyeballs. I don't consider that a detriment to
competition. I don't consider GPS to be a detriment to competition
either - or Spots, or radios, or transponders, or compasses, or
variometers or altimeters, or supplemental oxygen or parachutes for
that matter.

9B