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Safety Pilot restrictions by the Insurance Company?



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 24th 07, 08:37 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Mark Hansen
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Posts: 420
Default Safety Pilot restrictions by the Insurance Company?

I belong to a flying club. Of the many club rules, one is that the
pilot acting as PIC must be a club member. I can certainly see where
this is necessary.

However, the Chief Pilot for the club claims that the insurance
company is requiring that a safety pilot for IFR practice must also
be a club member, even when the safety pilot will *not* be acting
as PIC.

I was told that the reason behind this is that in the event of an
accident/incident, the insurance company doesn't want anyone who
was acting as a required crew member to be a non club member.

Is this normal for an insurance restriction like this? It seems to
me that this is just making it harder for the IR pilot to practice.

Thanks,
  #2  
Old February 24th 07, 10:28 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Roy Smith
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Posts: 478
Default Safety Pilot restrictions by the Insurance Company?

In article ,
Mark Hansen wrote:

I belong to a flying club. Of the many club rules, one is that the
pilot acting as PIC must be a club member. I can certainly see where
this is necessary.

However, the Chief Pilot for the club claims that the insurance
company is requiring that a safety pilot for IFR practice must also
be a club member, even when the safety pilot will *not* be acting
as PIC.

I was told that the reason behind this is that in the event of an
accident/incident, the insurance company doesn't want anyone who
was acting as a required crew member to be a non club member.

Is this normal for an insurance restriction like this? It seems to
me that this is just making it harder for the IR pilot to practice.

Thanks,


Ask your chief pilot to show you the policy. That's the only way to know
for sure.

Actually, I'm sure that in the event of accident, the insurance company
more certainly DOES want the PIC to be somebody who's not covered by the
policy, because then they don't have to pay off. It's the club who doesn't
want that to happen.
  #3  
Old February 24th 07, 10:32 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Mark Hansen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 420
Default Safety Pilot restrictions by the Insurance Company?

On 02/24/07 13:28, Roy Smith wrote:
In article ,
Mark Hansen wrote:

I belong to a flying club. Of the many club rules, one is that the
pilot acting as PIC must be a club member. I can certainly see where
this is necessary.

However, the Chief Pilot for the club claims that the insurance
company is requiring that a safety pilot for IFR practice must also
be a club member, even when the safety pilot will *not* be acting
as PIC.

I was told that the reason behind this is that in the event of an
accident/incident, the insurance company doesn't want anyone who
was acting as a required crew member to be a non club member.

Is this normal for an insurance restriction like this? It seems to
me that this is just making it harder for the IR pilot to practice.

Thanks,


Ask your chief pilot to show you the policy. That's the only way to know
for sure.


Yes, and I'm sure each policy could be different. I'm really asking what
it typical.


Actually, I'm sure that in the event of accident, the insurance company
more certainly DOES want the PIC to be somebody who's not covered by the
policy, because then they don't have to pay off. It's the club who doesn't
want that to happen.


In this case, the PIC is most definitely a club member. The rub (according
to what I'm told) is that a required crew member (safety pilot) is not a
club member. The safety pilot would not be acting as PIC.

Thanks,
  #4  
Old February 25th 07, 03:13 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
tscottme
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Posts: 67
Default Safety Pilot restrictions by the Insurance Company?

By allowing non-club members to act as safety pilot in club aircraft isn't
that a big loophole to allow pilots of unknown qualification access to club
aircraft? I don't propose that their are unscrupulous pilots using the
safety pilot "loophole" to gain access to aircraft for nefarious reasons.
But I can understand the insurance company dictating minimum qualifications
of pilots to fly the club airplanes. If the club or insurance company
doesn't limit safety pilots to those accepted as club members the
club/insurance company doesn't really have sufficient control over the
minimum standard of pilots to access the aircraft.

If this is a real insurance or club limitation it seems similar to the "no
flight instructing in our aircraft except by approved CFIs" limitation.
Without these types of limitations the club member or pilot renting from an
FBO can take the airplane and allow non-approved pilots to use the aircraft
in a non-approved activity, with flight instructing and IFR work being
significant risks.

--

Scott


  #5  
Old February 25th 07, 04:18 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Jose
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Posts: 897
Default Safety Pilot restrictions by the Insurance Company?

By allowing non-club members to act as safety pilot in club aircraft isn't
that a big loophole to allow pilots of unknown qualification access to club
aircraft?


Uh... "access to club aircraft"? Like the kind of access my
non-club-member passengers have? Or my
non-club-member-but-licensed-pilot passengers have? The club member
remains PIC and remains resposible for the safety of the flight.

What kind of "access" are you talking about?

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #6  
Old February 25th 07, 05:15 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Robert M. Gary
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Posts: 2,767
Default Safety Pilot restrictions by the Insurance Company?

On Feb 24, 11:37 am, Mark Hansen wrote:
I belong to a flying club. Of the many club rules, one is that the
pilot acting as PIC must be a club member. I can certainly see where
this is necessary.

However, the Chief Pilot for the club claims that the insurance
company is requiring that a safety pilot for IFR practice must also
be a club member, even when the safety pilot will *not* be acting
as PIC.


Insurance companies don't seem to care much about PIC. They determine
who is "pilot flying" (term used in most policies) mostly by what seat
you are in. However, the Chief Pilot is free to add any rules he
wants, he's kinda the boss. You certainly would never want to allow a
non-club member on the controls because the insurance co will get you
for that if there is an accident, regardless of PIC.

-Robert

  #7  
Old February 25th 07, 08:46 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
tscottme
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 67
Default Safety Pilot restrictions by the Insurance Company?

"Jose" wrote in message
...
By allowing non-club members to act as safety pilot in club aircraft
isn't that a big loophole to allow pilots of unknown qualification access
to club aircraft?


Uh... "access to club aircraft"? Like the kind of access my
non-club-member passengers have? Or my non-club-member-but-licensed-pilot
passengers have? The club member remains PIC and remains resposible for
the safety of the flight.

What kind of "access" are you talking about?


Without the restriction being discussed how does the club/insurance company
control which pilots are risking the airplane? If club members are required
to use safety pilots that are approved by the club, by virtue of being club
members, there is some minimum of safety pilot qualification assured.
Without the rule a club member can designate any warm body sitting in the
right seat as safety pilot.

The rule may not prevent unauthorized use any more than a "no flight
instructing in aircraft rented by ABC Aviation without prior approval" but
the rule seems just as reasonable. The rule is a bright line which informs
club members specifically about an acitivity of increased risk. While
pilots and insurance companies have been arguing for years about "who's in
control" and PIC, etc. The rule seems to head off the ambiguity by
requiring both pilots to be approved by virtue of membership.

--

Scott


  #8  
Old February 25th 07, 01:09 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Bonehenge (B A R R Y)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 31
Default Safety Pilot restrictions by the Insurance Company?

On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 20:13:09 -0600, "tscottme"
wrote:

By allowing non-club members to act as safety pilot in club aircraft isn't
that a big loophole to allow pilots of unknown qualification access to club
aircraft? I don't propose that their are unscrupulous pilots using the
safety pilot "loophole" to gain access to aircraft for nefarious reasons.


The safety pilot is chosen by the PIC, no?

As I've safetied for my friends, I've NEVER actually flown the plane.
G My job is simply to look for other VFR traffic, and ensure we
stay separated from traffic called out to us by ATC, while the other
pilot was under the hood and flying the instruments.

What "nefarious reasons" could a safety pilot have who's been chosen
by the PIC? Many of our local safety pilots are FBO line people
working up advanced ratings and looking to log free time.

  #9  
Old February 25th 07, 02:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Jose
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 897
Default Safety Pilot restrictions by the Insurance Company?

Without the restriction being discussed how does the club/insurance company
control which pilots are risking the airplane?


"Risking" the airplane? What are you talking about? The PIC "risks"
the airplane every time he flies it. He "risks" the airplane even more
if he takes a passenger. Perhaps passengers should be required to be
club members.

Without the rule a club member can designate any warm body sitting in the
right seat as safety pilot.


No, the safety pilot has to meet certain FAA standards. The PIC "risks"
the airplane every time he puts on a hood. But it is the PIC that is
risking the airplane.

The rule seems to head off the ambiguity by
requiring both pilots to be approved by virtue of membership.


Ambiguity can also be headed off by requiring all occupants to be club
members.

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #10  
Old February 25th 07, 08:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Mark Hansen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 420
Default Safety Pilot restrictions by the Insurance Company?

On 02/24/07 18:13, tscottme wrote:
By allowing non-club members to act as safety pilot in club aircraft isn't
that a big loophole to allow pilots of unknown qualification access to club
aircraft? I don't propose that their are unscrupulous pilots using the
safety pilot "loophole" to gain access to aircraft for nefarious reasons.
But I can understand the insurance company dictating minimum qualifications
of pilots to fly the club airplanes. If the club or insurance company
doesn't limit safety pilots to those accepted as club members the
club/insurance company doesn't really have sufficient control over the
minimum standard of pilots to access the aircraft.

If this is a real insurance or club limitation it seems similar to the "no
flight instructing in our aircraft except by approved CFIs" limitation.
Without these types of limitations the club member or pilot renting from an
FBO can take the airplane and allow non-approved pilots to use the aircraft
in a non-approved activity, with flight instructing and IFR work being
significant risks.


Again ... the safety pilot is not acting as pilot in command. He is acting
as safety pilot only. He is little more than a passenger.

Incidentally, the club requires that the pilot acting as PIC be a club
member, so that rules out the ability for the safety pilot to act as
PIC (even if they allowed non-club members to be safety pilot).
 




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