Can they do this? Restrict airport to IFR traffic only?

Larry Dighera wrote:




Being instrument rated, I am aware of practice instrument approaches
in VMC. But does ATC consider them as being conducted in under IFR or
VFR regulations?

Depends on whether you are VFR or IFR at the time. If you are flying
under IFR rules then you will get standard IFR separation and all the
standard IFR rules apply. If you are doing approaches VFR then you will
get 3 miles of lateral separation, just like a regular IFR aircraft, but
you only get 500 feet of vertical separation. Two other differences
are that your 3 miles of lateral only extend to the approach end of the
runway, so you have three miles decreasing to zero once inside of three
miles. At your missed you are strictly VFR and have to request the
published missed if that's what you want. It's all in the .65.

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 20:11:32 -0400, "Kyle Boatright"
wrote in
::


wrote in message
oups.com...
Can they close an airport to all VFR traffic? This is what they're
doing at Friedman Memorial Airport at Hailey, Idaho [HLE].

Link to the article:
http://www.mtexpress.com/index2.php?...&ID=2005102705

I'm obstinate enough to make a "precautionary landing due to rough engine"
just to tweak these idiots... Too bad I don't make it to Idaho very often.

If someone found the real story, I'd wager that it comes down to the fact
that IFR aircraft, particularly turbines, put a lot more $$ in FBO pockets
than the typical light aircraft that is VFR only.


The news article had this to say about the reason for banning VFR
flights:

Rick Baird, airport manager, said the field would be closed
Tuesday, July 5, to all VFR (Visual Flight Rules) arriving traffic
between noon and 8:30 p.m. Only aircraft on IFR (Instrument Flight
Rules) flight plans would be allowed during those hours.

That's the day when July 4 holiday visitors would be leaving and
corporate jets of media executives attending the annual Allen &
Co. retreat would be arriving. Baird estimates the airport will
rack up 300 to 400 operations in one day.

A similar ban on VFR arrivals will be in place on July 10 between
7 a.m. and 8:30 p.m. because of the departure of corporate jets at
the end of the Allen & Co. conference. IFR aircraft under radar
control of Salt Lake Air Route Traffic Control Center can be
sequenced to land at Friedman at closer intervals to keep traffic
moving.


Hoover's had this to say about Allen & Company:


http://www.hoovers.com/allen-&-compa...actsheet.xhtml
For Allen & Company, there's no business like financing show
business. The investment bank serves variously as investor,
underwriter, and broker to some of the biggest names in
entertainment, technology, and information. Viewed as something of
a secret society, the firm has had a quiet hand in such hookups as
Seagram (now part of Vivendi Universal) and Universal Studios,
Hasbro and Galoob Toys, and Disney and Capital Cities/ABC. In
2004, the company participated in the much-ballyhooed initial
public offering of Google. The firm's famous annual retreat in Sun
Valley, Idaho, attracts more moguls than a double-black ski run
(Rupert Murdoch, Bill Gates, and Oprah Winfrey have attended).


So it would appear that the monied "beautiful-people" are being
accommodated by the airport. Give the manager a call at:
208-788-4956, and see ask him/her why VFR flights are being
discriminated against.

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 20:30:17 -0400, Peter Clark
wrote in
::

Non-IMC practice approaches are flown VFR,

I wish you had an authoritative citation for that opinion.

thus the requirement for the safety pilot to look out for
other traffic and ensure you don't violate cloud
separation, etc.

Of course aircraft on an IFR flight plan flying an approaches in VMC
are _required_ to see-and-avoid also.

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 18:54:57 -0600, Newps wrote
in ::

Larry Dighera wrote:

Being instrument rated, I am aware of practice instrument approaches
in VMC. But does ATC consider them as being conducted in under IFR or
VFR regulations?

Depends on whether you are VFR or IFR at the time. If you are flying
under IFR rules then you will get standard IFR separation and all the
standard IFR rules apply. If you are doing approaches VFR then you will
get 3 miles of lateral separation, just like a regular IFR aircraft, but
you only get 500 feet of vertical separation. Two other differences
are that your 3 miles of lateral only extend to the approach end of the
runway, so you have three miles decreasing to zero once inside of three
miles. At your missed you are strictly VFR and have to request the
published missed if that's what you want. It's all in the .65.

Thanks for the information. I had a feeling it was contained in FAA
Order 7110.65, but wanted to avoid the work of locating the specific
regulation(s), although it would be interesting to read them.

On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 01:03:36 GMT, Larry Dighera
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 20:30:17 -0400, Peter Clark
wrote in
::

Non-IMC practice approaches are flown VFR,

I wish you had an authoritative citation for that opinion.

Nothing except pages like http://www.awp.faa.gov/lta/lta_list.cfm
containing references to ATC services provided to VFR aircraft doing
practice approaches, and the aforementioned controller telling us
"maintain VFR at all times" when giving us our approach instructions,
lack of hard IFR altitude assignments, filing an IFR flightplan, or
requesting a popup IFR clearance.......

thus the requirement for the safety pilot to look out for
other traffic and ensure you don't violate cloud
separation, etc.

Of course aircraft on an IFR flight plan flying an approaches in VMC
are _required_ to see-and-avoid also.

But are not required to avoid clouds, the point I was attempting to
make.

On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 01:03:36 GMT, Larry Dighera
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 20:30:17 -0400, Peter Clark
wrote in
::

Non-IMC practice approaches are flown VFR,

I wish you had an authoritative citation for that opinion.

And 7110.65P, section 4-8-11 - Practice Approaches
http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp4/atc0408.html#4-8-11

Specifically section A paragraph 5:

"5. All VFR aircraft shall be instructed to maintain VFR on initial
contact or as soon as possible thereafter.

NOTE-
This advisory is intended to remind the pilot that even though ATC is
providing IFR-type instructions, the pilot is responsible for
compliance with the applicable parts of the CFR governing VFR flight."

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:48:00 -0700, "mindenpilot"
wrote in
::


Being instrument rated, I am aware of practice instrument approaches
in VMC. But does ATC consider them as being conducted in under IFR or
VFR regulations? That is my point.

Perhaps one of the ATC professionals among the readership of this
newsgroup is will be able to cite the relevant FAA Order governing
this.



In the article mentioned in the OP, it says that flights would be restricted
to IFR flights on an IFR flight plan.
I'm still not sure if you could get away with simply filing an IFR flight
plan and flying it maintaining VFR the entire time.
As Larry mentioned, could an ATC pro clear this up?

Thanks,

Adam
N7966L
Beech Super III

In the article mentioned in the OP, it says that flights would be restricted
to IFR flights on an IFR flight plan.
I'm still not sure if you could get away with simply filing an IFR flight
plan and flying it maintaining VFR the entire time.
As Larry mentioned, could an ATC pro clear this up?


To operate under an IFR flight plan (as in UNDER A CLEARANCE) you must
be instrument rated and current. What the weather is like doesn't
matter. Either you CAN legally accept an IFR clearance or you CANNOT.

Also, in a general comment regarding the whole thread... I'm noting that
this discussion is being based on a lay-media article that is not being
written to a pilot/industry audience. I wouldn't be surprised if either
an STMP is placed in effect for this event, with reservations required,
or perhaps other clarification being disseminated by NOTAM closer to the
event.

Dave

"Dave S" wrote

To operate under an IFR flight plan (as in UNDER A CLEARANCE) you must
be instrument rated and current. What the weather is like doesn't
matter. Either you CAN legally accept an IFR clearance or you CANNOT.


If that is true, how can a pilot who has let his currency lapse, get current
again?

Doesn't he have to be on an IFR flight to get current again?
--
Jim in NC

mindenpilot wrote:

"Gig 601XL Builder" wr.giacona@coxDOTnet wrote in message
news:KmU9e.2946$Xg.1033@okepread02...

"mindenpilot" wrote in message
...


Also, if the weather is VFR, there is nothing stopping us VFR pilots from
filing an IFR flight plan and flying in, as long as we maintain VFR.
This would further add to the congestion.


Well, nothing except the FARs 61.3
(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil
aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums
prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:




It looks like the FAR you listed specifically says "IFR" or "weather less
than VFR".
If the weather is VFR (as I stated) then you only need a safety pilot, who
does not need to be instrument rated.

Correct. You can shoot PRACTICE approaches without an IFR flight plan.
As long as you and ATC are clear that YOU are NOT on an IFR flight plan,
you are operating under VFR rules. Cloud Clearance, Visibility, etc.

Otherwise, how do you train for IFR? Always have an instrument rated safety
pilot?


You train for it under VFR rules. If you do not have a pilot who can
Legally accept an IFR clearance (rated and current) then you cannot
accept an IFR clearance. Period. If you DO, then you shoot practice
approaches under an IFR clearance.. you can even shoot REAL approaches
in actual. You can PRACTICE under VFR or under IFR.. but if under IFR
someone has to be able to accept the clearance.

Dave