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#11
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On 26 Feb 2004 20:05:18 GMT, (ROTORFRANK) wrote:
Assuming Comanche money really stays in Army Aviation (yeah, right), I'd expect them to look for off-the-shelf twin-engined helicopters rather than fresh starts. The Agusta Westland A129 is a dedicated attack helicopter already integrated with Comanche T800 engines, but I suspect the end cost of a Mongoose with US systems would be up there with the Tiger. If they're going to go that route, they should buy the damn Comanche. It is possible for one helicopter to do both the light attack and light utility missions. The question is how light is "light," and how much you want to go offshore. If the Army doesn't care about the US industrial base (The Coast Guard doesn't.), there are lots of foreign candidates. your absolutely wrong about this, the HH-65A maybe French design, but it is 100% american made. From the engines to the airframe, to the avionics. info. http://www.uscg.mil/d13/dpa/backgrou...rs/dolphin.htm Great as it is, I think the single-engined MD600/MH-6 Little Bird is too small for a lot of Guard missions. In addition to RAID anti-drug patrols, the guard has to move emergency response teams, and it will probably need secondary medevac capability - that means you need a good-sized cabin. With that in mind, the MDHI MD900 would be a good light utility helicopter, and one made largely in the US (albeit by a Dutch-owned company). NOTAR works fine; it just wasn't right for the 160th. The Bell 427 is a possibility, but it's uncomfortably close to the OH-58D and probably too light and confining for the Guard requirement. The Agusta-Westland navel Super Lynx is already powered by Comanche T800s, and a Battlefield Lynx derivative with those engines and a domestic equipment suite could fill the bill. The A109 is used for attack and utility missions, but a re-engined version again seems expensive for what you'd get. LTV once offered a T800-powered Dauphin as the Panther. That would give you a pretty expensive French helicopter that could probably do the job. But, again, it's French. Sikorsky pitched an AUH-76 long ago and got nowhere. I suspect the Army would like something smaller, more crashworthy and cheaper to operate. Likewise, the Bell 412 is old technology and brings with it high operating costs for what you'd get. The Agusta Bell AB139 and Bell UH-1Y I think are just too big and too close to the Black Hawk. I don't think there would be much incentive to buy either one. So, my choice would be the MD900, at least for the light utility requirement. You could hang the Little Bird weapons on it to make do with an armed scout of sorts. Bear in mind, the Comanche started out filling these same requirements with two versions. Look at how well the Army handled that. Frank |
#12
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"Lyle" wrote in message ... On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 23:33:37 -0500, "Kevin Brooks" wrote: "Thomas Schoene" wrote in message link.net... I just wanted to start a new thread specifically to look at the new aircraft the Army is talking about buying instead of the Comanche, and see what options there are available. As I read the briefings, there are basically three new manned platforms. I doubt there is funding for new designs in any of these roles. While it is really premature to say too much, with no actual performance requirements set, I'm curious what options folks see for each. 1) Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (368 to be bought). Could this be a Sikorsky H-76? The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter role; is this an option? USCG uses the French Daulphin, the attack version of it is called the Panther. No, the USCG uses both the HH-65 Dolphin *and* the MH-68 (A-109); only the latter is armed, and assigned to the Helicopter Interdiction Tactical Squadron (HITRON). Brooks snip |
#13
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On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 13:12:03 -0800, Lyle wrote:
On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 23:33:37 -0500, "Kevin Brooks" wrote: "Thomas Schoene" wrote in message hlink.net... I just wanted to start a new thread specifically to look at the new aircraft the Army is talking about buying instead of the Comanche, and see what options there are available. As I read the briefings, there are basically three new manned platforms. I doubt there is funding for new designs in any of these roles. While it is really premature to say too much, with no actual performance requirements set, I'm curious what options folks see for each. 1) Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (368 to be bought). Could this be a Sikorsky H-76? The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter role; is this an option? Stand corrected, didnt know that the USCG used A-109's, so i went to look up more information about it. Seems that they are useing the A-109 to knock out the engines out boats with high powerd rifles. USCG uses the French Daulphin, the attack version of it is called the Panther. wich is more advanced design then the A-109 IMO, but it could be an good idea to have a common airframe for multiple branches. But you would have to update for todays use, with new/better engines etc. I'd say both could be potential candidates, as could the MD 600 or 900 series (though the Army has in the past rather disliked the NOTAR concept, having modified those MH-6's they had in that configuration back to conventional tail rotor designs). Somewhat off-the-wall candidate would be the A-129 Mangusta, which unlike the other candidates you note (other than the H-76, to some extent) already has a well developed armament and sensor suite. The Tiger is a no-show; probably more expensive than the other candidates, and with a lot of political baggage to overcome. 2) Light Utility Helicopter (303 to be bought) I know the Bell 412 has been mentioned. Might the Marine Corps UH-1Y also be a candidate? (Is this Huey II?) I doubt the UH-1Y could be a candidate. They are dependent upon having the requisite airframes available for modification, and the Army Hueys were quite different from the twin-engine USMC variants. Huey II is another aircraft modification program, much less dramatic than the UH-1Y program. The II retained the same rotor and mast system, with new engine/transmission and revised tail rotor and stabilizer, and I would assume some "glass cockpit" work, along with the more streamlined nose of the 412 series. I think the Army would just as soon get completely away from the old cumbersome rotor system and have rigid rotor mounts across its entire fleet, so I would bet the 412 has the edge. One possible caveat to my first comment on the -1Y--if there were enough old USAF UH-1N's at DM and they could be modified to the same standard as the -1Y, then that could possibly make it a viable alternative. 3) C-XX Intra-Theater Lift (25 to be bought) Presumably C-27J is the frontrunner. What other options are there? Realistically, just the CN-295. Odds are the C-27J gets that one; some commonality with the C-130J family is a plus, and the folks at NGB (or at least NGAUS) have already expressed some interest in it in the past. ISTR that the cargo space geometry in the Spartan is a bit better than the CN-295 as well. Brooks -- Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail "If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed) |
#14
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"Lyle" wrote in message ... On 26 Feb 2004 20:05:18 GMT, (ROTORFRANK) wrote: Assuming Comanche money really stays in Army Aviation (yeah, right), I'd expect them to look for off-the-shelf twin-engined helicopters rather than fresh starts. The Agusta Westland A129 is a dedicated attack helicopter already integrated with Comanche T800 engines, but I suspect the end cost of a Mongoose with US systems would be up there with the Tiger. If they're going to go that route, they should buy the damn Comanche. It is possible for one helicopter to do both the light attack and light utility missions. The question is how light is "light," and how much you want to go offshore. If the Army doesn't care about the US industrial base (The Coast Guard doesn't.), there are lots of foreign candidates. your absolutely wrong about this, the HH-65A maybe French design, but it is 100% american made. From the engines to the airframe, to the avionics. info. http://www.uscg.mil/d13/dpa/backgrou...rs/dolphin.htm Well, it does not really say that. It says it was manufactured here in the US--how much of the airframe assembly was from knock down kits? As to engines, they are apparently being replaced...by a European design from Turbomecca. Face it, the Dolphin is a French helo--just as the F-16's that are built in the ROK undwer license are "American". Brooks Great as it is, I think the single-engined MD600/MH-6 Little Bird is too small for a lot of Guard missions. In addition to RAID anti-drug patrols, the guard has to move emergency response teams, and it will probably need secondary medevac capability - that means you need a good-sized cabin. With that in mind, the MDHI MD900 would be a good light utility helicopter, and one made largely in the US (albeit by a Dutch-owned company). NOTAR works fine; it just wasn't right for the 160th. The Bell 427 is a possibility, but it's uncomfortably close to the OH-58D and probably too light and confining for the Guard requirement. The Agusta-Westland navel Super Lynx is already powered by Comanche T800s, and a Battlefield Lynx derivative with those engines and a domestic equipment suite could fill the bill. The A109 is used for attack and utility missions, but a re-engined version again seems expensive for what you'd get. LTV once offered a T800-powered Dauphin as the Panther. That would give you a pretty expensive French helicopter that could probably do the job. But, again, it's French. Sikorsky pitched an AUH-76 long ago and got nowhere. I suspect the Army would like something smaller, more crashworthy and cheaper to operate. Likewise, the Bell 412 is old technology and brings with it high operating costs for what you'd get. The Agusta Bell AB139 and Bell UH-1Y I think are just too big and too close to the Black Hawk. I don't think there would be much incentive to buy either one. So, my choice would be the MD900, at least for the light utility requirement. You could hang the Little Bird weapons on it to make do with an armed scout of sorts. Bear in mind, the Comanche started out filling these same requirements with two versions. Look at how well the Army handled that. Frank |
#15
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"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message ... "Lyle" wrote in message ... On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 23:33:37 -0500, "Kevin Brooks" wrote: "Thomas Schoene" wrote in message link.net... I just wanted to start a new thread specifically to look at the new aircraft the Army is talking about buying instead of the Comanche, and see what options there are available. As I read the briefings, there are basically three new manned platforms. I doubt there is funding for new designs in any of these roles. While it is really premature to say too much, with no actual performance requirements set, I'm curious what options folks see for each. 1) Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (368 to be bought). Could this be a Sikorsky H-76? The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter role; is this an option? USCG uses the French Daulphin, the attack version of it is called the Panther. No, the USCG uses both the HH-65 Dolphin *and* the MH-68 (A-109); only the latter is armed, and assigned to the Helicopter Interdiction Tactical Squadron (HITRON). Brooks Last minute update-- an article appeared earlier this month indicating that, after completing armament of the HH-60's, the HH-65's will receive an armament capability in the not-too-distant future. www.rotorhub.com/news/0211/hpower17.htm Brooks snip |
#16
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#17
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Guy Alcala wrote:
Thomas Schoene wrote: The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter role; is this an option? Probably not. I'd think an MD-5xx could be in the running, if they go OTS. I didn't even realize this was still in production. Seems like it would not be a clear improvement over the OH-58. Doies it have the endurance to operate tactically with the Apache? 2) Light Utility Helicopter (303 to be bought) I know the Bell 412 has been mentioned. AB-139, This is a tempting option, given that the Coast Gaurd has selected it for their Deepwater program (with major US content, BTW). 3) C-XX Intra-Theater Lift (25 to be bought) Presumably C-27J is the frontrunner. What other options are there? CASA C-295. Unlikely, given the C-27J's engine/cockpit commonality with the C-130J. The C-295 is smaller, slower and less powerful, but cheaper. And also selected by the USCG. -- Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail "If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed) |
#18
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Kevin Brooks wrote:
Last minute update-- an article appeared earlier this month indicating that, after completing armament of the HH-60's, the HH-65's will receive an armament capability in the not-too-distant future. The armed A109s are leased, so I guess the Coasties would like to get the capability back into planes they actually own. When the armed helo first was proposed, the case was made that the Dolphin didn't have enough weight margins; I wonder what they're doing to change that situation. -- Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail "If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed) |
#19
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Thomas Schoene wrote:
Kevin Brooks wrote: Last minute update-- an article appeared earlier this month indicating that, after completing armament of the HH-60's, the HH-65's will receive an armament capability in the not-too-distant future. The armed A109s are leased, so I guess the Coasties would like to get the capability back into planes they actually own. When the armed helo first was proposed, the case was made that the Dolphin didn't have enough weight margins; I wonder what they're doing to change that situation. Replacing the LTS 101 engines, probably with Turbomeca Arriel 2C2s. Guy |
#20
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Thomas Schoene wrote:
Guy Alcala wrote: Thomas Schoene wrote: The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter role; is this an option? Probably not. I'd think an MD-5xx could be in the running, if they go OTS. I didn't even realize this was still in production. Sure, MD Helicopters got split off from Boeing a few years back. As someone else remarked, the MD-530F might be the a/c of choice, assuming the Army doesn't want one of the NOTAR variants, or they could buy the lower-powered MD-500E. Always assuming they're willing to stay single-engine. Seems like it would not be a clear improvement over the OH-58. Performance-wise, operators tend to disagree. The OH-58's main advantage is that it was cheaper to buy and (probably) operate. Doies it have the endurance to operate tactically with the Apache? I couldn't say. 2) Light Utility Helicopter (303 to be bought) I know the Bell 412 has been mentioned. AB-139, This is a tempting option, given that the Coast Gaurd has selected it for their Deepwater program (with major US content, BTW). 3) C-XX Intra-Theater Lift (25 to be bought) Presumably C-27J is the frontrunner. What other options are there? CASA C-295. Unlikely, given the C-27J's engine/cockpit commonality with the C-130J. The C-295 is smaller, slower and less powerful, but cheaper. And also selected by the USCG. Are you sure? I thought they'd selected the CN-235-300M. Guy |
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