New MOAs proposed near Marine Corp base and Mt Patterson

From AOPA: New MOAs proposed in areas we use heavily during the soaring season.
The high area extends from 13500 to 18000 from the Sierra crest out east past Mt Patterson.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...m_medium=email

Deadline for comments October 18.

On Saturday, October 5, 2019 at 10:25:47 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
From AOPA: New MOAs proposed in areas we use heavily during the soaring season.
The high area extends from 13500 to 18000 from the Sierra crest out east past Mt Patterson.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...m_medium=email

Deadline for comments October 18.

I sent a comment - I encourage anyone who soars out of Truckee, Minden, or Air Sailing (or ever wants to) to do the same. The high area will be particularly bad.

Posted a reply to AOPA and FAA with a link to my flights over the proposed MOA.
https://share.garmin.com/JamesLee4

What's the big deal? Every flight I make from my home airport at Inyokern (except a pattern tow :-) is in a MOA. There are no rules to keep me out, but I do need to be more aware for military traffic.
The proposed MOA is to enclose airspace that is already being used for military exercises. Looks like they just want to make it more obvious to VFR pilots and to protect IFR flights by providing an official tool for routing them around the airspace when it's active.
Read the AIM. This will not affect soaring in that area.

3-4-5 Military Operations Areas
a. MOAs consist of airspace of defined vertical and lateral limits established for the purpose of separating certain military training activities from IFR traffic. Whenever a MOA is being used, nonparticipating IFR traffic may be cleared through a MOA if IFR separation can be provided by ATC. Otherwise, ATC will reroute or restrict nonparticipating IFR traffic.
b. Examples of activities conducted in MOAs include, but are not limited to: air combat tactics, air intercepts, aerobatics, formation training, and low-altitude tactics. Military pilots flying in an active MOA are exempted from the provisions of 14 CFR Section 91.303(c) and (d) which prohibits aerobatic flight within Class D and Class E surface areas, and within Federal airways. Additionally, the Department of Defense has been issued an authorization to operate aircraft at indicated airspeeds in excess of 250 knots below 10,000 feet MSL within active MOAs.
c. Pilots operating under VFR should exercise extreme caution while flying within a MOA when military activity is being conducted. The activity status (active/inactive) of MOAs may change frequently. Therefore, pilots should contact any FSS within 100 miles of the area to obtain accurate real�time information concerning the MOA hours of operation. Prior to entering an active MOA, pilots should contact the controlling agency for traffic advisories.
d. Permanent MOAs are charted on Sectional Aeronautical, VFR Terminal Area, and the appropriate En Route Low Altitude charts.

On Saturday, October 5, 2019 at 7:20:53 PM UTC-7, 5Z wrote:
What's the big deal? Every flight I make from my home airport at Inyokern (except a pattern tow :-) is in a MOA. There are no rules to keep me out, but I do need to be more aware for military traffic.
The proposed MOA is to enclose airspace that is already being used for military exercises. Looks like they just want to make it more obvious to VFR pilots and to protect IFR flights by providing an official tool for routing them around the airspace when it's active.
Read the AIM. This will not affect soaring in that area.

3-4-5 Military Operations Areas
a. MOAs consist of airspace of defined vertical and lateral limits established for the purpose of separating certain military training activities from IFR traffic. Whenever a MOA is being used, nonparticipating IFR traffic may be cleared through a MOA if IFR separation can be provided by ATC. Otherwise, ATC will reroute or restrict nonparticipating IFR traffic.
b. Examples of activities conducted in MOAs include, but are not limited to: air combat tactics, air intercepts, aerobatics, formation training, and low-altitude tactics. Military pilots flying in an active MOA are exempted from the provisions of 14 CFR Section 91.303(c) and (d) which prohibits aerobatic flight within Class D and Class E surface areas, and within Federal airways. Additionally, the Department of Defense has been issued an authorization to operate aircraft at indicated airspeeds in excess of 250 knots below 10,000 feet MSL within active MOAs.
c. Pilots operating under VFR should exercise extreme caution while flying within a MOA when military activity is being conducted. The activity status (active/inactive) of MOAs may change frequently. Therefore, pilots should contact any FSS within 100 miles of the area to obtain accurate real�time information concerning the MOA hours of operation. Prior to entering an active MOA, pilots should contact the controlling agency for traffic advisories.
d. Permanent MOAs are charted on Sectional Aeronautical, VFR Terminal Area, and the appropriate En Route Low Altitude charts.

I'm with you - the military can operate almost anywhere at anytime, governed by the same airspace rules that we must follow. In Washington low altitude flights are made out of Whidbey Island to the Boardman Bombing Range, which takes them over the Cascade Mountains, down the Columbia River and up and over several ridges. High altitude flights descending to ground level are down out of McCord involving C-17s (with only a 3 man crew). And there IS NO MOA. I fly out of Ely during the summer with MOAs nearby - this summer I noticed one pair of fighters. What is more troubling is that these fighters were not using transponders or ADS-B; part of their training, I assume.

Tom

That last part is what concerns me the most, if military aircrafts indeed not using transponders or ADS-B nor receiving alerts from our transponders/ADS-B (direct or indirect via ATC) than this is an accident waiting to happen. There is no way they can see us in time to avoid us, and no way we can react fast enough to avoid them.
At the minimum we can do our part to educate them about our presence.

Ramy

I believe that military aircraft while flying without ADS-B out, for simulated intercepts for example. They would very likely be flying with ADS-B in to display targets.

I have no proof of the above, just kind of makes sense.

On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 5:46:19 AM UTC-7, Mike N. wrote:
I believe that military aircraft while flying without ADS-B out, for simulated intercepts for example. They would very likely be flying with ADS-B in to display targets.

I have no proof of the above, just kind of makes sense.

It's ALWAYS good to comment on new airspace proposals.

My last glider flight was over 90% inside 3 MOAs. This is quite normal.
It's fun flying in MOAs. Once engaged an F-16, with him off my nose hit the PTT: "guns, guns, guns, I just shot down a fighter" and had the F-16 pilot reply he was reaching for the eject handle.
An A-6 pilot managed to sneak up on me in the Champ, came from the left wing blind spot and roared accross in front of me. All I could think was "YOU *******!".
Learned too, that F-111s roll inverted and pull to go over a ridgeline.
Fortunately we have Joshua Approach, which does a very good job with traffic awareness. Monitoring their freqs, you hear aircraft being informed about gliders "maneuvering". We must look to them as if we're drunk and can't hold a heading or speed.
Still have no desire to install ADS-B.
Jim

It's ever so much more comfortable to roll and pull rather than to push
over and dangle in the straps.Â* But you need a pretty decent roll rate
to avoid clogging the pitot tube with dirt.

On 10/6/2019 9:55 AM, JS wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 5:46:19 AM UTC-7, Mike N. wrote:
I believe that military aircraft while flying without ADS-B out, for simulated intercepts for example. They would very likely be flying with ADS-B in to display targets.

I have no proof of the above, just kind of makes sense.
It's ALWAYS good to comment on new airspace proposals.

My last glider flight was over 90% inside 3 MOAs. This is quite normal.
It's fun flying in MOAs. Once engaged an F-16, with him off my nose hit the PTT: "guns, guns, guns, I just shot down a fighter" and had the F-16 pilot reply he was reaching for the eject handle.
An A-6 pilot managed to sneak up on me in the Champ, came from the left wing blind spot and roared accross in front of me. All I could think was "YOU *******!".
Learned too, that F-111s roll inverted and pull to go over a ridgeline.
Fortunately we have Joshua Approach, which does a very good job with traffic awareness. Monitoring their freqs, you hear aircraft being informed about gliders "maneuvering". We must look to them as if we're drunk and can't hold a heading or speed.
Still have no desire to install ADS-B.
Jim

--
Dan, 5J

On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 5:46:19 AM UTC-7, Mike N. wrote:
I believe that military aircraft while flying without ADS-B out, for simulated intercepts for example. They would very likely be flying with ADS-B in to display targets.

I have no proof of the above, just kind of makes sense.

Why would you *assume* anything? Especially things that affect safety.

Lets start with how many US marine or other military aircraft flying in this MOA might be equipped with ADS-B In at all? That list is likely to be pretty short, maybe very short: I am not aware of *any* military aircraft that are ADS-B In equipped. They might exist, might be planned for but I'm not aware of any and have not seen any equipage plans for that amongst the considerable discussion of military ADS-B Out equipage. If anybody has any more information I'd love to hear it.

Avionics systems in military aircraft, airliners and corporate jets etc. are very complex and highly integrated. You can't just plug in an ADS-B In or Out system. Integrating ADS-B In with the tactical radar and IFF systems in military fighter aircraft is likely to be very complex, the latest (Block III) Super Hornets as an example (since the FA-18 was mentioned as operating in this MOA) don't include ADS-B In AFAIK. It may be less complex to integrate 1090ES In for military aircraft equipped with civilian derived TCAS II like some military transports.

BTW by means of an example, very few airliners that have 1090ES Out also have 1090ES In or UAT In. I'm watching the capability codes being transmitted by 1090ES Out equipped airline traffic in the San Francisco Bay Area (those codes describe their ADS-B In capability), almost none of the 1090ES Out equipped airliners have ADS-B In... but they all have TCAS, which will see and help avoid transponder equipped aircraft.