A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Best Overall Motorglider available today?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #111  
Old October 5th 20, 08:16 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,134
Default Best Overall Motorglider available today?

It should not come as a surprise that the JS1/JS2 cockpits are similar to the ASH26, given that they took a splash mold off of a 26 fuselage to build them. They seem identical because they are.

On Monday, October 5, 2020 at 9:22:34 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, 5 October 2020 at 15:38:53 UTC+1, Carlo Orsini wrote:
JS2 spec:
Cockpit shoulder width
525 mm

ASH31Mi spec:
Cockpit width
660 mm

Yes, there is a photo of Goudriaan in the cockpit: his position is completely lying down with shoulders under the rims. I don't think you could fly 10 hours in that position IMHO.

When talking about aerodynamic drag the fuselage frontal area is an important factor, especially at high speeds (when induced drag is less).

A pilot must take a decision: top performance or compromise & comfort ? Both is simply impossible.

(This was a factor when I had to choose between ASH31Mi and Ventus2CxM)

Those two dimensions for the JS2 and the ASH31 are clearly not be comparable - one internal cockpit rim and one external I guess. The 525mm shoulder width for the JS2 is exactly the same as the quoted figure for the JS1 (and JS3) and the JS1 cockpit roominess is fully equal to the ASH26/31 from which it was derived. I have 4 years in a JS1 followed by 2 in the ASH 26e and they are so similar that it would be hard to know which cockpit I was in with my eyes closed. Looking at the JS2 cockpit photographs it obvious that its structural cockpit rim design is the same as the 31, 26 and JS1. JS do not make small cockpits.

  #112  
Old October 5th 20, 08:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Galloway[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 58
Default Best Overall Motorglider available today?

On Monday, 5 October 2020 at 20:16:15 UTC+1, jfitch wrote:
It should not come as a surprise that the JS1/JS2 cockpits are similar to the ASH26, given that they took a splash mold off of a 26 fuselage to build them. They seem identical because they are.
On Monday, October 5, 2020 at 9:22:34 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, 5 October 2020 at 15:38:53 UTC+1, Carlo Orsini wrote:
JS2 spec:
Cockpit shoulder width
525 mm

ASH31Mi spec:
Cockpit width
660 mm

Yes, there is a photo of Goudriaan in the cockpit: his position is completely lying down with shoulders under the rims. I don't think you could fly 10 hours in that position IMHO.

When talking about aerodynamic drag the fuselage frontal area is an important factor, especially at high speeds (when induced drag is less).

A pilot must take a decision: top performance or compromise & comfort ? Both is simply impossible.

(This was a factor when I had to choose between ASH31Mi and Ventus2CxM)

Those two dimensions for the JS2 and the ASH31 are clearly not be comparable - one internal cockpit rim and one external I guess. The 525mm shoulder width for the JS2 is exactly the same as the quoted figure for the JS1 (and JS3) and the JS1 cockpit roominess is fully equal to the ASH26/31 from which it was derived. I have 4 years in a JS1 followed by 2 in the ASH 26e and they are so similar that it would be hard to know which cockpit I was in with my eyes closed. Looking at the JS2 cockpit photographs it obvious that its structural cockpit rim design is the same as the 31, 26 and JS1. JS do not make small cockpits.


Indeed they are - as I said.
  #113  
Old October 5th 20, 11:37 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Nadler
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,610
Default Best Overall Motorglider available today?

On Sunday, October 4, 2020 at 8:04:18 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
The telling difference for was when I did a 30nm glide at Ely in my 26e
with an ASG29; I ended up 3,000ft below him!


Apologies all, I guess Tom's '26 perhaps isn't the "Best Overall Motorglider Available Today"...
  #114  
Old October 6th 20, 01:11 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,134
Default Best Overall Motorglider available today?

On Sunday, October 4, 2020 at 8:44:11 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
2G wrote on 10/4/2020 5:04 PM:
ling non-engined gliders by about 5:1, it may not take that long.

The telling difference for was when I did a 30nm glide at Ely in my 26e with an ASG29; I ended up 3,000ft below him! I was down below ridge height scratching and he easily connected with a thermal and was gone. The better glide of the 31 is really substantial as is the engine performance at high-density altitudes.

If he was getting 50:1, that suggests you were only getting 27:1. What speed were
you flying? What were the respective wing loadings? Did you follow closely behind?
Did you have a lot of bugs?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

If he forgot to put his motor away, that'd about do it.
  #115  
Old October 6th 20, 01:57 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,439
Default Best Overall Motorglider available today?

On Monday, October 5, 2020 at 9:13:16 AM UTC-7, RW wrote:
On Monday, October 5, 2020 at 11:41:41 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, October 4, 2020 at 8:07:16 PM UTC-7, RW wrote:
On Sunday, October 4, 2020 at 8:04:18 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, October 3, 2020 at 6:58:32 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Saturday, October 3, 2020 at 9:33:33 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, October 3, 2020 at 9:00:01 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
Dave, there was no good reason to do it. The E engine was running fine, had 45 hours on it, and it still running today in another glider.. A number of 26E owners over the years have expressed interest in this conversion. We had the engine and were curious about AS claim that this was not a trivial endeavor. Also, I was going to need to replace the Technoflug prop at some point, and the Mi engine already had that prop. It turned into a bit more work than we (Rex and I) had imagined - perhaps AS was right - but the result is a nice upgrade. The alternative way to get an Mi engine is to spend the $1/4M dollar bill for a 31.

On Friday, October 2, 2020 at 5:41:57 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, October 2, 2020 at 12:46:57 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
While the Mi engine is better, the E engine is certainly adequate
Thanks Jfitch for showing us your beautiful 26mi at the convention.
Can you remind us why you decided to do the conversion from original engine?

Thanks,
Best Regards, Dave
I think if you factored in the cost of the engine and the cost of the labor you would be better off selling your 26e and buying a new 31Mi.. You definitely can't get your money back when you sell your converted 26Mi (which really doesn't exist as it is not an AS model).

Tom
The cost of the parts wasn't that high and the labor was free. Certainly far less than the $100K or so difference. I considered a 31 but prefer the one piece wings, leaving the only advantage (for me) of the 31 the higher wing loading on rare occasions when I could be bothered with water. Nevertheless, it isn't wise to look too closely at the cost of soaring, it is phenomenally expensive at this level. Everyone makes their own decisions, and I made mine with full knowledge.

Regarding auxiliary motors, this prejudice will die away eventually. Sailboats with auxiliaries are now universal and are thought of as sailboats, but it took about 50 years to get there. With motorgliders currently outselling non-engined gliders by about 5:1, it may not take that long.
The telling difference for was when I did a 30nm glide at Ely in my 26e with an ASG29; I ended up 3,000ft below him! I was down below ridge height scratching and he easily connected with a thermal and was gone. The better glide of the 31 is really substantial as is the engine performance at high-density altitudes.

Valuing your labor at zero doesn't make sense as you can always work at your profession and pay someone else to do the work. If you make less than what it will cost in labor, then do it yourself, but set the labor cost at your deferred labor rate. Even worse, when it is time to sell potential buyers will consider it to be a 26e, not a 26Mi (which doesn't exist).

I've stopped worrying about the obscene cost of these toys a long time ago. If it bothered me, I could just play golf at zero additional cost (I have an annual membership at the course I play whether I fly or not).

Tom
Tom,
Energy line is not big highway.
Your friend read a line a bit better.
We all trying the best, but we sometimes miss.
Its not a glider !
Ryszard


Ryszard, you might consider rephrasing your comment as it just doesn't make any sense.

Tom

Tom, I believe, best energy line is narrow, like British roads can handle one car.
Flying side by side 200 ft apart will not bring same results.
Ryszard


Perhaps if you have a convergence zone, but that is questionable and we were not flying in a convergence zone on that glide.

Tom
  #116  
Old October 6th 20, 05:49 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kinsell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 546
Default Best Overall Motorglider available today?

On 10/5/20 12:05 PM, John Galloway wrote:
On Monday, 5 October 2020 at 17:48:52 UTC+1, kinsell wrote:
On 10/4/20 4:01 PM, Matthew Scutter wrote:
On Sunday, October 4, 2020 at 10:01:09 PM UTC+2, wrote:
I don't believe the '25 was ever sold as a twin jet, but there was one converted by the owner. (in Australia, I believe)
Which subsequently ended in tragedy

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...r/ao-2018-009/


Wikipedia showed an AH-25J, but yeah that was likely the 25M conversion.

They also do list a self-launch with a bigger Solo engine, which would
make sense since the wankel has always been marginal for the larger
ships, particularly at higher altitude airports. Anyway you cut it, a
lot of engines for one ship.

-Dave


The Solo engined version is the AS25/EB28 which is really a Binder EB model leading on to their EB28 then EB28 Edition models.


Pardon the continued drift, but Garret Willat once posted a humorous
"Woe is Me" type video about flying an ASH25/Eb28 in a world's
competition, their lithium batteries went out and left them without
motor capability and no power on the panel.

Not having an adequate backup navigation system, they were flying around
in a foreign country, using a paper tourist map for guidance, and
avoiding rain showers. I think this was only on FaceBook, never saw it
elsewhere.

Drifting back closer to the original topic of the thread, I personally
haven't lost a bit a sleep over how much Jon spent on his conversion,
but want to point out that buying a used 26E and dropping an injected
engine into it is not economically practical. Nick unfortunately didn't
provide guidance on how much he was willing to spend on a glider, so
it's not clear if a used '31Mi is in the running. Shorter trailer,
18/21 meter wing configuration, better weight capability are other
advantages, but they ain't cheap.

Asking "what's the best motorglider" is a bit like asking "what's the
best book to read".

-Dave
  #117  
Old October 6th 20, 08:53 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Carlo Orsini
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4
Default Best Overall Motorglider available today?

Thank you for your first hand infos, those are good news for me (I don't understand why they advertise these dimensions in a different way). JS2 seems to be a nice project overall. Hard to me to understand where they streched out those +4 points of efficency in 21m, according to their calculated polars, compared to ASH31 (yes I know that '31 profiles are a bit superseeded and the aspect ratio is a factor too but 4 points are a huge amount!!).
Those two dimensions for the JS2 and the ASH31 are clearly not be comparable - one internal cockpit rim and one external I guess. The 525mm shoulder width for the JS2 is exactly the same as the quoted figure for the JS1 (and JS3) and the JS1 cockpit roominess is fully equal to the ASH26/31 from which it was derived. I have 4 years in a JS1 followed by 2 in the ASH 26e and they are so similar that it would be hard to know which cockpit I was in with my eyes closed. Looking at the JS2 cockpit photographs it obvious that its structural cockpit rim design is the same as the 31, 26 and JS1. JS do not make small cockpits.

  #118  
Old October 6th 20, 04:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,439
Default Best Overall Motorglider available today?

On Monday, October 5, 2020 at 3:37:33 PM UTC-7, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Sunday, October 4, 2020 at 8:04:18 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
The telling difference for was when I did a 30nm glide at Ely in my 26e
with an ASG29; I ended up 3,000ft below him!


Apologies all, I guess Tom's '26 perhaps isn't the "Best Overall Motorglider Available Today"...


Moral of the story: wing loading matters.

Tom
  #119  
Old October 6th 20, 04:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,134
Default Best Overall Motorglider available today?

They are claiming 63:1, that is 7 points higher than AS claim of 56:1. I think it is best explained by a mistake in their math. I'd be interested in seeing the test data proving it.

On Tuesday, October 6, 2020 at 12:53:25 AM UTC-7, Carlo Orsini wrote:
Thank you for your first hand infos, those are good news for me (I don't understand why they advertise these dimensions in a different way). JS2 seems to be a nice project overall. Hard to me to understand where they streched out those +4 points of efficency in 21m, according to their calculated polars, compared to ASH31 (yes I know that '31 profiles are a bit superseeded and the aspect ratio is a factor too but 4 points are a huge amount!!).
Those two dimensions for the JS2 and the ASH31 are clearly not be comparable - one internal cockpit rim and one external I guess. The 525mm shoulder width for the JS2 is exactly the same as the quoted figure for the JS1 (and JS3) and the JS1 cockpit roominess is fully equal to the ASH26/31 from which it was derived. I have 4 years in a JS1 followed by 2 in the ASH 26e and they are so similar that it would be hard to know which cockpit I was in with my eyes closed. Looking at the JS2 cockpit photographs it obvious that its structural cockpit rim design is the same as the 31, 26 and JS1. JS do not make small cockpits.

  #120  
Old October 6th 20, 05:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,939
Default Best Overall Motorglider available today?

2G wrote on 10/6/2020 8:33 AM:
On Monday, October 5, 2020 at 3:37:33 PM UTC-7, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Sunday, October 4, 2020 at 8:04:18 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
The telling difference for was when I did a 30nm glide at Ely in my 26e
with an ASG29; I ended up 3,000ft below him!


Apologies all, I guess Tom's '26 perhaps isn't the "Best Overall Motorglider Available Today"...


Moral of the story: wing loading matters.

Tom

So, you were flying too fast for your wing loading, trying to keep up with the 29?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
ASW 20C Motorglider Nick Kennedy[_3_] Soaring 3 February 7th 19 12:17 PM
FS: DG-400 Motorglider 2G Soaring 0 September 20th 13 02:32 PM
IFR in motorglider? cp Soaring 28 March 9th 08 01:02 AM
Motorglider Tug Ray Lovinggood Soaring 21 November 13th 04 05:06 AM
motorglider KsiTau Soaring 0 September 4th 04 09:10 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:09 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.