"System Failure Is Blamed In U.S. Downing Of British Jet"

the report is at Military Aircraft Accident Summary for Tornado GR4A
ZG710 http://www.mod.uk/linked_files/publi.../maaszg710.pdf

"fudog50" wrote in message
...
Gawd,
20 years ago (1984), onboard the Connie, as a young E-4 I
stood 4 hour watches "shooting" using the then brand new APM-424 "star
wars" test set on every A/C that was scheduled to launch. If the Mode
4 didn't work, they didn't launch,,,,period. Moreover, in the
following 20 years, addtional improvements to the APM-424 "star wars"
transponder test set and upgrades to the APX-72 and Kit-1C's have
resulted in a successful method of determining reliabilty and accuracy
of IFF systems onboard US Navy A/C prior to launch.
I have worked at det sites with the RAF, they are incredible,
top notch. However,in my opinion and experience they are willing to
accept a little more risk than we normally do. The question is: Was
there an adequate, reliable and accurate check of the Tornadoe's IFF
system before it left the deck?
Yes or No answers with explantions are all that are required
before moving forward and/or speculating further.

Nice top post, guy. Leaving no idea whatsoever as to what/who you were
responding to. The fact is that the IFF was not operating properly when the
aircraft was engaged, and that was a major contributing factor to the frat
incident--it would actually be the proximate cause of the incident, as had
it been working properly the less-than-optimal Patriot ROE would not be in
question in regards to this action.

Brooks


On Mon, 17 May 2004 23:37:23 -0400, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:


"Drewe Manton" wrote in message
. 4...
"Kevin Brooks" wrote in news:FbidnTOlj-
:

Does crow taste better roasted, or fried?


Did you miss the bit about Patriot rules of engagement being
"insufficently robust"? Seems to me that calling for meals of crow is
in
bad taste all around here. . . . it was a tragedy, it was war, the two
go
hand in hand.

The Patriot had its share of troubles, no doubt. But immediately after it
was announced that the Tornado had gone down, some folks took a "it's the
Patriot, stupid" stance as to assigning the guilt in this case, despite
an
early mention of the suspicion that all may have not been right regarding
the aircraft's IFF. Now the chickens have come home to roost. And since
you
are so keyed up in still trying to point the fickle finger of fate at the
Patriot in this case, did you miss the part that said: "The investigation
board determined that the Patriot crew fired in perceived self-defense in
accordance with existing procedures and Rules of Engagement"? Yeah, it
was a
tragedy--the ROE doubtless contributed to it, too. But those ROE would
never
have been invoked had the aircraft had a functional IFF transmitting the
proper code. Curiousity compels me to ask--were you one of the guys
claiming
it was just another case of trigger-happy Patriot engagement after it
went
down?

Brooks


--
Regards
Drewe
"Better the pride that resides
In a citizen of the world
Than the pride that divides
When a colourful rag is unfurled"

"Drewe Manton" wrote in message
. 4...
"Kevin Brooks" wrote in
:

Curiousity compels me to ask--were you one of the guys claiming
it was just another case of trigger-happy Patriot engagement after it
went down?


Nope, feel free to google it (though I doubt you have the desire to do
so, I certainly don't!) but my stance from day one has been that it was a
fog of war tragedy. Although I will admit to a wry smile when a couple of
days later an F-16CJ fired on a Patriot radar system (I think I'm right
in saying no-one was hurt in that incident, do you remember anything?).

IIRC the radar got trashed, but no injuries to personnel. ISTR that incident
*was* a case of "RoboPatriot" screwing up...

Just another chain of events in large scale operations that come together
at the worst possible moment and create the worst possible outcome for
those involved.

Agreed. But some of your fellow countrymen were quite a bit more accusatory
(and one-sided in those accusations) in the immediate aftermath--and they
are strangely quiet now.

Brooks


--
Regards
Drewe
"Better the pride that resides
In a citizen of the world
Than the pride that divides
When a colourful rag is unfurled"

In message , fudog50
writes
I have worked at det sites with the RAF, they are incredible,
top notch. However,in my opinion and experience they are willing to
accept a little more risk than we normally do. The question is: Was
there an adequate, reliable and accurate check of the Tornadoe's IFF
system before it left the deck?

From the accident report:-

"The ground engineering check on ZG710’s encrypted Mode 4 IFF was
completed satisfactorily pre-engine start, and an RAF Regiment Rapier
Missile unit that regularly checked the IFF of departing aircraft did
not report the aircraft or log a fault. In line with extant procedures,
only Mode 4 was checked on the ground. However, there is no firm
evidence that ZG710 responded to any IFF interrogations throughout the
entire mission, although there is evidence that the navigator checked
the IFF switches at the appropriate times."

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...

"Drewe Manton" wrote in message
Nope, feel free to google it (though I doubt you have the desire to do
so, I certainly don't!) but my stance from day one has been that it was
a
fog of war tragedy. Although I will admit to a wry smile when a couple
of
days later an F-16CJ fired on a Patriot radar system (I think I'm right
in saying no-one was hurt in that incident, do you remember anything?).

IIRC the radar got trashed, but no injuries to personnel. ISTR that
incident
*was* a case of "RoboPatriot" screwing up...

Actually it's a case of poor signal identification on the part of the CJ.
That's what you get when you put cheap EW pods on aircraft and expect them
to identify radar signals. I seriously doubt a F-4G crew would have made the
same mistake.

Of course, even though smartass remarks were not desired, you had to
add one,,,thanks buddy

I asked a simple question, thank for the compliment on the top post,
pal!

(and you have no idea what/who I am and so are you!)

On Tue, 18 May 2004 10:28:46 -0400, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:


"fudog50" wrote in message
.. .
Gawd,
20 years ago (1984), onboard the Connie, as a young E-4 I
stood 4 hour watches "shooting" using the then brand new APM-424 "star
wars" test set on every A/C that was scheduled to launch. If the Mode
4 didn't work, they didn't launch,,,,period. Moreover, in the
following 20 years, addtional improvements to the APM-424 "star wars"
transponder test set and upgrades to the APX-72 and Kit-1C's have
resulted in a successful method of determining reliabilty and accuracy
of IFF systems onboard US Navy A/C prior to launch.
I have worked at det sites with the RAF, they are incredible,
top notch. However,in my opinion and experience they are willing to
accept a little more risk than we normally do. The question is: Was
there an adequate, reliable and accurate check of the Tornadoe's IFF
system before it left the deck?
Yes or No answers with explantions are all that are required
before moving forward and/or speculating further.

Nice top post, guy. Leaving no idea whatsoever as to what/who you were
responding to. The fact is that the IFF was not operating properly when the
aircraft was engaged, and that was a major contributing factor to the frat
incident--it would actually be the proximate cause of the incident, as had
it been working properly the less-than-optimal Patriot ROE would not be in
question in regards to this action.

Brooks


On Mon, 17 May 2004 23:37:23 -0400, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:


"Drewe Manton" wrote in message
. 4...
"Kevin Brooks" wrote in news:FbidnTOlj-
:

Does crow taste better roasted, or fried?


Did you miss the bit about Patriot rules of engagement being
"insufficently robust"? Seems to me that calling for meals of crow is
in
bad taste all around here. . . . it was a tragedy, it was war, the two
go
hand in hand.

The Patriot had its share of troubles, no doubt. But immediately after it
was announced that the Tornado had gone down, some folks took a "it's the
Patriot, stupid" stance as to assigning the guilt in this case, despite
an
early mention of the suspicion that all may have not been right regarding
the aircraft's IFF. Now the chickens have come home to roost. And since
you
are so keyed up in still trying to point the fickle finger of fate at the
Patriot in this case, did you miss the part that said: "The investigation
board determined that the Patriot crew fired in perceived self-defense in
accordance with existing procedures and Rules of Engagement"? Yeah, it
was a
tragedy--the ROE doubtless contributed to it, too. But those ROE would
never
have been invoked had the aircraft had a functional IFF transmitting the
proper code. Curiousity compels me to ask--were you one of the guys
claiming
it was just another case of trigger-happy Patriot engagement after it
went
down?

Brooks


--
Regards
Drewe
"Better the pride that resides
In a citizen of the world
Than the pride that divides
When a colourful rag is unfurled"

Thanks Paul.

On Tue, 18 May 2004 17:52:44 +0100, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote:

In message , fudog50
writes
I have worked at det sites with the RAF, they are incredible,
top notch. However,in my opinion and experience they are willing to
accept a little more risk than we normally do. The question is: Was
there an adequate, reliable and accurate check of the Tornadoe's IFF
system before it left the deck?

From the accident report:-

"The ground engineering check on ZG710’s encrypted Mode 4 IFF was
completed satisfactorily pre-engine start, and an RAF Regiment Rapier
Missile unit that regularly checked the IFF of departing aircraft did
not report the aircraft or log a fault. In line with extant procedures,
only Mode 4 was checked on the ground. However, there is no firm
evidence that ZG710 responded to any IFF interrogations throughout the
entire mission, although there is evidence that the navigator checked
the IFF switches at the appropriate times."

Thanks Mike,,I'll read it.

On 18 May 2004 07:08:05 -0700, (Mike) wrote:

the report is at Military Aircraft Accident Summary for Tornado GR4A
ZG710 http://www.mod.uk/linked_files/publi.../maaszg710.pdf

"fudog50" wrote in message
...
Of course, even though smartass remarks were not desired, you had to
add one,,,thanks buddy

I asked a simple question, thank for the compliment on the top post,
pal!

If you had not noticed, per the lead post in this thread, the investigation
has been completed--the malfunctioning IFF was found to be the proximate
cause of the incident. Your question, following up that whole "Gawd..."
introduction (starting a post (especially a top post) with an expression of
disdainful, eyes-rolling disbelief, is probably not the most tactful way of
introducing your message) has been answered by others--now how does that
affect the *fact* that the Brits themselves concluded that the IFF was to
blame?


(and you have no idea what/who I am and so are you!)

Not quite sure what that garbled blurb means, but one thing you mumbled does
pop out as true--I don't have much of an idea who/what you are, which is
understandable given your anonymous moniker. Now why would a guy be afraid
to use his real name...

Brooks


On Tue, 18 May 2004 10:28:46 -0400, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:


"fudog50" wrote in message
.. .
Gawd,
20 years ago (1984), onboard the Connie, as a young E-4 I
stood 4 hour watches "shooting" using the then brand new APM-424 "star
wars" test set on every A/C that was scheduled to launch. If the Mode
4 didn't work, they didn't launch,,,,period. Moreover, in the
following 20 years, addtional improvements to the APM-424 "star wars"
transponder test set and upgrades to the APX-72 and Kit-1C's have
resulted in a successful method of determining reliabilty and accuracy
of IFF systems onboard US Navy A/C prior to launch.
I have worked at det sites with the RAF, they are incredible,
top notch. However,in my opinion and experience they are willing to
accept a little more risk than we normally do. The question is: Was
there an adequate, reliable and accurate check of the Tornadoe's IFF
system before it left the deck?
Yes or No answers with explantions are all that are required
before moving forward and/or speculating further.

Nice top post, guy. Leaving no idea whatsoever as to what/who you were
responding to. The fact is that the IFF was not operating properly when
the
aircraft was engaged, and that was a major contributing factor to the
frat
incident--it would actually be the proximate cause of the incident, as
had
it been working properly the less-than-optimal Patriot ROE would not be
in
question in regards to this action.

Brooks


On Mon, 17 May 2004 23:37:23 -0400, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:


"Drewe Manton" wrote in message
. 4...
"Kevin Brooks" wrote in news:FbidnTOlj-
:

Does crow taste better roasted, or fried?


Did you miss the bit about Patriot rules of engagement being
"insufficently robust"? Seems to me that calling for meals of crow
is
in
bad taste all around here. . . . it was a tragedy, it was war, the
two
go
hand in hand.

The Patriot had its share of troubles, no doubt. But immediately after
it
was announced that the Tornado had gone down, some folks took a "it's
the
Patriot, stupid" stance as to assigning the guilt in this case,
despite
an
early mention of the suspicion that all may have not been right
regarding
the aircraft's IFF. Now the chickens have come home to roost. And
since
you
are so keyed up in still trying to point the fickle finger of fate at
the
Patriot in this case, did you miss the part that said: "The
investigation
board determined that the Patriot crew fired in perceived self-defense
in
accordance with existing procedures and Rules of Engagement"? Yeah, it
was a
tragedy--the ROE doubtless contributed to it, too. But those ROE would
never
have been invoked had the aircraft had a functional IFF transmitting
the
proper code. Curiousity compels me to ask--were you one of the guys
claiming
it was just another case of trigger-happy Patriot engagement after it
went
down?

Brooks


--
Regards
Drewe
"Better the pride that resides
In a citizen of the world
Than the pride that divides
When a colourful rag is unfurled"

C wrote in
2.12:

The only such missile in-theater was the HARM (High-Speed Ant-Radiation
Homing Missile)

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

--
Regards
Drewe
"Better the pride that resides
In a citizen of the world
Than the pride that divides
When a colourful rag is unfurled"