Requesting a hold from ATC for descents

If it becomes impossible to respect your descent schedule, is it
permissible to ask ATC to give you a hold temporarily so that you can
descend in the hold pattern until you're back to your planned descent?
If so, is this a fairly common procedure, or very unusual? I'm
thinking with respect to large commercial jets in particular (or
potentially any jet, since they usually seem to be fast and slippery).

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-----Original Message-----
From: Mxsmanic ]
Posted At: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 10:53 AM
Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
Conversation: Requesting a hold from ATC for descents
Subject: Requesting a hold from ATC for descents

If it becomes impossible to respect your descent schedule, is it
permissible to ask ATC to give you a hold temporarily so that you can
descend in the hold pattern until you're back to your planned descent?
If so, is this a fairly common procedure, or very unusual? I'm
thinking with respect to large commercial jets in particular (or
potentially any jet, since they usually seem to be fast and slippery).

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They also employ spoilers and can typically come down very quickly. Give
a more precise example of "becomes impossible to respect your descent
schedule" please.

Mxsmanic wrote:

If it becomes impossible to respect your descent schedule, is it
permissible to ask ATC to give you a hold temporarily so that you can
descend in the hold pattern until you're back to your planned descent?
If so, is this a fairly common procedure, or very unusual? I'm
thinking with respect to large commercial jets in particular (or
potentially any jet, since they usually seem to be fast and slippery).


Never happens. Like the other gentleman says, the spoilers (actually
speed brakes when used in flight) are the "ace in the hole."

Mxsmanic wrote:
If it becomes impossible to respect your descent schedule, is it
permissible to ask ATC to give you a hold temporarily so that you can
descend in the hold pattern until you're back to your planned descent?
If so, is this a fairly common procedure, or very unusual? I'm
thinking with respect to large commercial jets in particular (or
potentially any jet, since they usually seem to be fast and slippery).

Probably more of an issue for Mooney and Lasair pilots than for jets
that can descend at 3,000 FPM.

-Robert

Sam Spade wrote:


Never happens. Like the other gentleman says, the spoilers (actually
speed brakes when used in flight) are the "ace in the hole."

Sam,

Never say never I have asked for, and received a turn in the hold to
lose altitude, after arriving at the final fix about 10,000 feet high.
This was due to descent restrictions from center because of other
approaches in progress. The flight spoilers on a 727 are *very*
effective, but they can't perform miracles!

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane

Scott Skylane wrote:
Sam Spade wrote:


Never happens. Like the other gentleman says, the spoilers (actually
speed brakes when used in flight) are the "ace in the hole."


Sam,

Never say never I have asked for, and received a turn in the hold to
lose altitude, after arriving at the final fix about 10,000 feet high.
This was due to descent restrictions from center because of other
approaches in progress. The flight spoilers on a 727 are *very*
effective, but they can't perform miracles!

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane

Your mileage may vary. ;-)

I've got almost 8,000 hours in the 727 and never, ever did an approach
hold or procedure turn. Delay vectors, yes.

Scott Skylane wrote:



Never say never I have asked for, and received a turn in the hold to
lose altitude, after arriving at the final fix about 10,000 feet high.
This was due to descent restrictions from center because of other
approaches in progress. The flight spoilers on a 727 are *very*
effective, but they can't perform miracles!

You also must also factor in pilot incompetence. I can't begin to tell
you how many times these jet pilots, almost always from the majors like
NWA and UAL as well as from the regionals like Skywest, report on the
freq 35 miles out at FL230 or higher. This is not centers fault as the
descent clearance was given about 200 miles out. Center usually gives a
PD descent and these guys continually foul it up. So to illuminate your
mistake I will drive you right at the airport and make you beg for mercy.

Sam Spade writes:

Never happens. Like the other gentleman says, the spoilers (actually
speed brakes when used in flight) are the "ace in the hole."

I've tried spoilers, but they aren't always sufficient to please the
FMC. Now I go through every leg of the route checking for
unreasonable-looking descents (or, theoretically, climbs, although the
FMC seems to calculate those more reliably).

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-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Spade ]
Posted At: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 2:15 PM
Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
Conversation: Requesting a hold from ATC for descents
Subject: Requesting a hold from ATC for descents

....
Your mileage may vary. ;-)

I've got almost 8,000 hours in the 727 and never, ever did an approach
hold or procedure turn. Delay vectors, yes.

And then there was the time several years ago an American 727 into TUL
was hot, high, and straight-in -- but he wasn't going to sequence behind
my lowly Cherokee 6. He ended up going around after blowing across the
boundary well above Vref and ended up landing #2 behind the Bonanza that
followed me in. I wonder what that little excursion cost?

Of course I still love to hear the tower tell a pilot "left or right
turn at the end if able".

-----Original Message-----
From: Newps ]
Posted At: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 2:24 PM
Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
Conversation: Requesting a hold from ATC for descents
Subject: Requesting a hold from ATC for descents

....

You also must also factor in pilot incompetence. I can't begin to
tell
you how many times these jet pilots, almost always from the majors
like
NWA and UAL as well as from the regionals like Skywest, report on the
freq 35 miles out at FL230 or higher. This is not centers fault as
the
descent clearance was given about 200 miles out. Center usually gives
a
PD descent and these guys continually foul it up. So to illuminate
your
mistake I will drive you right at the airport and make you beg for
mercy.

I seem to remember a "keep-em-high" program years ago that kept everyone
as high as possible for as long as possible to preserve fuel and reduce
noice. Could that policy still be in effect for some carriers?