P-51's in movie "Empire of the Sun"

In article ,
Cub Driver wrote:


See my question to Gord about ground effect. Is it really there, as a
cushion, or is that a myth?

Ground effect is a reduction in drag....not a "cushion" the repels you
from the earth.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

"Alistair Gunn" wrote in message
. ..
Jim Doyle twisted the electrons to say:
"M. H. Greaves" wrote in message
...
In the film Memphis Belle, they had a Bf109 with a Merlin engine (same
engine as in the spitfire and the P51), so they could have a mostly
genuine enemy plane (well apart from the engine).
Of course there werent any originally engined 109's available.
Just the one actually, 'Black 6' at Duxford - (has since crashed into a
field at the hands of the then CinC Strike!)

IIRC, aren't there effectively 3 "types" of 109 around?

[1] Genuine 109s - non flying since 'Black 6' got bent. :-(
[2] 'Mules' that have been fitted with a Daimler-Benz DB-605.
[3] 'Mules' using an engine other than the DB-605.

The Original Me-109 was designed for the Junkers Jumo 210
and the protoype flew with a RR Kestrel engine as I recall.

Quite a few of the surviving '109s' are actually Hispano HA-1112
aircraft that were built post war with either Hispano-Suiza or
RR Merlin engines.

Keith

See my question to Gord about ground effect. Is it really there, as a
cushion, or is that a myth?

absolutely, it is there. get down low enough over flat seas and you can feel
'something', akin to being on a down bed, held over a hard bed.

G

In article , Jim Doyle
writes

i saw a film that they tried to make the F4 Phantom a russian fighter!
that
said, the chances of getting a REAL russian plane for the film would be
pretty slim!

"Ice Station Zero" - a flight of four (?) MiG-21 models turns into a
real Phantom as it overflies the submarine.

Also didn't Donald
Pleasence get shot after James Gardner crashed theirs in 'The Great Escape'?

I thought that was a Bucker Bu181 Bestmann (or a derivative), but I
might be wrong.

"Sahara" (original version) - is the 'Messerschmitt' a Mustang?
"Where Eagles Dare" - the Bell 47 playing, I guess, a Flettner Fl282?
"A Bridge Too Far" - AT-6s playing Thunderbolts and Typhoons?

--
Graeme

Currently Reading: "The Day We Bombed Switzerland" - Granholm

Dan Ford wrote in part:
See my question to Gord about ground effect. Is it really there, as a cushion,
or is that a myth?

Probably a reality, but I don't recall noticing it in teh exercise mentioned.
Did have a friend who lost an engine in a P2V about half way to Hawaii.
Officially, too heavy to stay airborne, dump enough fuel to be light enough to
stay airborne, and one hasn't enough fuel to reach land. Double bind.
(It has ben suggested that is why Lindbergh elected a single engine plane.
With the engines available, if he had two and lost one -- splash. If he had
one and lost one -- splash. But the chances of losing an engine in a single
engine plane are half those of a twin.)
They went down to zero altitude --ground effect max -- went through plane with
bolt cutters dumping everything dumpable. They spent about 4 hours with one
mill feathered and the other operating beyond all redlines. Arriving at
Barbers Point (?) there was no "letting down" to a landing. They simply
lowered the gear onto the runway. Whew!

Quent

To my knowledge there is the merlin engined Bf109 at duxford, and an
originally engined one titled "GUSTAV", it was captured in the desert and
restored later it is the only one with its original daimler benz engine
still in good nick and still powering the aircraft, last i heard of it was
when it was being carted off down under. Its probably back home by now.
These are the only ones i know of in UK, but i believe there is at least one
owned and flown privately in the USA.
"Alistair Gunn" wrote in message
. ..
Jim Doyle twisted the electrons to say:
"M. H. Greaves" wrote in message
...
In the film Memphis Belle, they had a Bf109 with a Merlin engine (same
engine as in the spitfire and the P51), so they could have a mostly
genuine enemy plane (well apart from the engine).
Of course there werent any originally engined 109's available.
Just the one actually, 'Black 6' at Duxford - (has since crashed into a
field at the hands of the then CinC Strike!)

IIRC, aren't there effectively 3 "types" of 109 around?

[1] Genuine 109s - non flying since 'Black 6' got bent. :-(
[2] 'Mules' that have been fitted with a Daimler-Benz DB-605.
[3] 'Mules' using an engine other than the DB-605.
--
These opinions might not even be mine ...
Let alone connected with my employer ...

"QDurham" wrote in message
...
| Dan Ford wrote in part:
| See my question to Gord about ground effect. Is it really there, as a
cushion,
| or is that a myth?
|
| Probably a reality, but I don't recall noticing it in teh exercise
mentioned.
| Did have a friend who lost an engine in a P2V about half way to Hawaii.
| Officially, too heavy to stay airborne, dump enough fuel to be light
enough to
| stay airborne, and one hasn't enough fuel to reach land. Double bind.
| (It has ben suggested that is why Lindbergh elected a single engine plane.
| With the engines available, if he had two and lost one -- splash. If he
had
| one and lost one -- splash. But the chances of losing an engine in a
single
| engine plane are half those of a twin.)
| They went down to zero altitude --ground effect max -- went through plane
with
| bolt cutters dumping everything dumpable. They spent about 4 hours with
one
| mill feathered and the other operating beyond all redlines. Arriving at
| Barbers Point (?) there was no "letting down" to a landing. They simply
| lowered the gear onto the runway. Whew!
|
| Quent
|
|


Another example would be the Singapore Airlines 747-400 that had the tail
strike at Auckland a year ago. Pilot and 1st officer screwed up on
the load sheet (long story) and fed the numbers into the computer 100 tonnes
short.


As the plane was racing towards the end of the runway and still not taking
off, the pilot hauled back further on the stick - without advancing the
throttles. Tail drags for 400m while the plane accelerates _very_
slowly.

Eventually they lift off just before the end of the concrete - at something
like 168 knots, which for that configuration, was 3-5 knots under their
stall speed. Such is the value of ground effect.


On another note ....

Helos also come with 2 max hovering altitudes - in ground effect and out of
ground effect.



Cheers


Dave Kearton

Interesting about the Vulcan. What made me think of this was reading
about the supposed difficulty of landing the Northrop YB-49 Flying
Wing bomber at Muroc (later Edwards) AFB -- that it would just float
and float.

On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 15:03:47 -0000, "M. H. Greaves"
wrote:

I think it would depend on the attitude and the angle of attack, also wing
area; the vulcan would float because of the wing area, it pushed a cushion
of air in front of it at low altitude.
"Cub Driver" wrote in message
.. .

Damnably impossible I'd say...the rules say 100 feet for 'pilot
bombing' and while this figure was likely (certainly) broken a
_few_ times nobody actually flew _knowingly_ with the prop tips
"3 to 5" feet above the water in a P2V. Trust me.

How much of a cushion do you have, from ground effect, in a
high-powered aircraft? I suppose it would be least in a fighter or a
B-26. But what about a B-25 or -17? If you were making 200 mph, say,
would the ground really want to reject you, or would you plow right
in?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

said, the chances of getting a REAL russian plane for the film would be
pretty slim!

"Ice Station Zero" - a flight of four (?) MiG-21 models turns into a
real Phantom as it overflies the submarine.

I have a photo from 1981, holding that MiG 21 model (there was actually only
one - the flight of four was only a flight of one, copied several times). Its
quite large, perhaps 30" long or a bit more. The original model is in a
storeroom today in the San Diego Aerospace Museum.



Also didn't Donald
Pleasence get shot after James Gardner crashed theirs in 'The Great Escape'?

I thought that was a Bucker Bu181 Bestmann (or a derivative), but I
might be wrong.

As Captain Tenneal would say, "Well, you're wrong." (Sticking my neck out
here) I think its a 108. Dern few Bestmanns around. Anyone know for sure?

--
Graeme

Currently Reading: "The Day We Bombed Switzerland" - Granholm


Where the heck have you been, Graeme?

yfGordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

Its always better to lose AN engine, than THE engine.

We used to sing a song at Happy Hour at the O Club about an
unfortunate pilot whose bombs were set for tenth of a second delay,
instead of the proper 10 seconds.

I can recall that one line was, "An F4U without a tail won't fly."

The chorus went something like:

"Ten thousand dollars going home to the folks.
Won't they be delighted!
Won't the be excited!
Think of all the things that they can buy!"

I hope that answers your question, Dan; and if anyone can remember the
entire lyrics, I'd be grateful to see them posted, for my senile mind
can no longer recall them.


Great post, Vince - love to read about this sort of thing. But seriously, can
we get back to politics now?

ducking

Your post got me thinking - I have an original poem in my Corsair file,
attached to a cartoon of a bunch of Vought engineers trying desperately to
install an early turbine engine into the nose of a late F4U... It's worth
finding, to see what the poem was about --

/theme from Jeopardy/

I found it quickly: the main idea of the page-long poem "The AU In Olde Eden
Town" is summed up below.

"Said he, "T'was a shame,
that a gal of her fame
Should be strapped to a risky-
dirty old Pratt and Whiskey

So to get her into the blue,
the thing to do
Was to give her a Nene,
and make her a Queen."

"So attention All Hands!
Just lend us your ears;
Tere's more for the U-bird
in spite of her years.

She'll still keep her hose-nose,
Jet engine or no.
And Wherever there's trouble,
be ready to go."

Ok, I'll admit, its not going down as a classic poem, but it was some anonymous
writer's tribute to the last throes of 'jet envy' that struck down thousands of
otherwise outstanding projects at the end of WWII. The stationary is from
"Chance Vought Aircraft Departmental Correspondence and neither the cartoon or
the poem are dated. Just little bits of Corsair crap from the binder... Can't
bring myself to throw it away, even though I have boxes of such things that my
wife views as trash. Worse than trash - decades-old trash. But if it was a
dress from 1978, THAT is still important enough for her to keep. Go figure.


v/r
Gordon



====(A+C====
USN SAR

Its always better to lose AN engine, than THE engine.