P-51's in movie "Empire of the Sun"

"M. H. Greaves" wrote in message
...
| I saw a video about the extensive testing of the early 747's (not the
| 400's), and the test pilots had a big wooden skid attached to the rear
| underside, and were taking off at too steep an angle grinding the wood
skid
| along the ground; amazing!!
| shows just how strong they were and how they could stand up to rough
| treatment; of course the one at Aukland didnt have a wooden skid so the
| effect must have been quite sparking, ('s'cuse the pun!!)



I don't have the 747-400 manual on hand, but on one of the first few pages
it mentions that the APU is as effective as a wooden skid, if you drag it
along 400m of concrete.





Cheers


Dave Kearton

Choppers are known as rotary wing a/c, and ordinary a/c are known as fixed
wing a/c.
"Peter Stickney" wrote in message
news
In article ,
nt (Krztalizer) writes:

See my question to Gord about ground effect. Is it really there, as a
cushion, or is that a myth?

absolutely, it is there. get down low enough over flat seas and you can
feel
'something', akin to being on a down bed, held over a hard bed.

Yabbut - Helicopters are _different_. (And the Navy, of course has to
be different, too, so Navy Helicopters are _very_ different)
In the case of a Fixed-Wing Aircraft, proximity to the ground kills
off the wingtip vortices, In Helicopters (Hmm... If Airplanes are
Fixed Wing Aircraft, I guess that means Helicopters are Broken Wing
Aircraft), you're either piling up the rotor wash faster than it can
run away, or the Earth is vastry increasing its repulsion of the noisy
beast in a last-ditch effort to keep it from marring the ground.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

Quite a few of the surviving '109s' are actually Hispano HA-1112
aircraft that were built post war with either Hispano-Suiza or
RR Merlin engines.

Keith



The one used in Memphis Belle was a Spanish built example with a Merlin
engine flown by Mark Hanna of the Old Flying Machine Company.

Unfortunatley Mark lost his life in this very aircraft a few years back.

Lee Hutch

I saw a video about the extensive testing of the early 747's (not the
400's), and the test pilots had a big wooden skid attached to the rear
underside, and were taking off at too steep an angle grinding the wood skid
along the ground; amazing!!
shows just how strong they were and how they could stand up to rough
treatment; of course the one at Aukland didnt have a wooden skid so the
effect must have been quite sparking, ('s'cuse the pun!!)
"Dave Kearton" wrote in
message ...
"QDurham" wrote in message
...
| Dan Ford wrote in part:
| See my question to Gord about ground effect. Is it really there, as a
cushion,
| or is that a myth?
|
| Probably a reality, but I don't recall noticing it in teh exercise
mentioned.
| Did have a friend who lost an engine in a P2V about half way to Hawaii.
| Officially, too heavy to stay airborne, dump enough fuel to be light
enough to
| stay airborne, and one hasn't enough fuel to reach land. Double bind.
| (It has ben suggested that is why Lindbergh elected a single engine
plane.
| With the engines available, if he had two and lost one -- splash. If he
had
| one and lost one -- splash. But the chances of losing an engine in a
single
| engine plane are half those of a twin.)
| They went down to zero altitude --ground effect max -- went through
plane
with
| bolt cutters dumping everything dumpable. They spent about 4 hours with
one
| mill feathered and the other operating beyond all redlines. Arriving at
| Barbers Point (?) there was no "letting down" to a landing. They simply
| lowered the gear onto the runway. Whew!
|
| Quent
|
|


Another example would be the Singapore Airlines 747-400 that had the tail
strike at Auckland a year ago. Pilot and 1st officer screwed up on
the load sheet (long story) and fed the numbers into the computer 100
tonnes
short.


As the plane was racing towards the end of the runway and still not taking
off, the pilot hauled back further on the stick - without advancing the
throttles. Tail drags for 400m while the plane accelerates _very_
slowly.

Eventually they lift off just before the end of the concrete - at
something
like 168 knots, which for that configuration, was 3-5 knots under their
stall speed. Such is the value of ground effect.


On another note ....

Helos also come with 2 max hovering altitudes - in ground effect and out
of
ground effect.



Cheers


Dave Kearton

yes i (not surprisingly and not unbelievably!!) saw that on the video "the
flying wing - the Jack Northrop Story"
"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

Interesting about the Vulcan. What made me think of this was reading
about the supposed difficulty of landing the Northrop YB-49 Flying
Wing bomber at Muroc (later Edwards) AFB -- that it would just float
and float.

On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 15:03:47 -0000, "M. H. Greaves"
wrote:

I think it would depend on the attitude and the angle of attack, also
wing
area; the vulcan would float because of the wing area, it pushed a
cushion
of air in front of it at low altitude.
"Cub Driver" wrote in message
.. .

Damnably impossible I'd say...the rules say 100 feet for 'pilot
bombing' and while this figure was likely (certainly) broken a
_few_ times nobody actually flew _knowingly_ with the prop tips
"3 to 5" feet above the water in a P2V. Trust me.

How much of a cushion do you have, from ground effect, in a
high-powered aircraft? I suppose it would be least in a fighter or a
B-26. But what about a B-25 or -17? If you were making 200 mph, say,
would the ground really want to reject you, or would you plow right
in?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"ecranoplann" (i think!!) lol
"Gord Beaman" wrote in message
...
"M. H. Greaves" wrote:

I think it would depend on the attitude and the angle of attack, also
wing
area; the vulcan would float because of the wing area, it pushed a
cushion
of air in front of it at low altitude.

I think that it's there for all a/c, look at that huge Russian
jobbie...'ekronoplanne' (or somesuch). It was designed to use
ground effect...I understand that you gotta be within about
one-half of your wingspan from the surface. You can almost
picture it, imagine why they use those 'winglets' at the tips of
Airbus and others, they prevent vortices by 'discouraging' the
higher pressure air from under the wings curling up and over the
tips to the lower pressure air above the wing.
--

-Gord.

Choppers are known as rotary wing a/c, and ordinary a/c are known as fixed
wing a/c.

Some of us know them helicopters and airplanes, respectively.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

Fighter Bombers got a 'B' for a suffix.
Radar carrying airplanes gor an 'E'.
Night Fighters/Bombers got an 'N'.
ASW airplanes got an 'S'.
Elint airplanes got a 'Q'.

But it wasn't always consistant. An F6F-5E was a Night Fighter, and
an PBM-3E was an ASW Patrol Bomber.

No wonder McNamara decided to take this problem in hand!

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

M. H. Greaves wrote:
It is a 108! i saw it in "mosquito sqdn" and "633 sqdn", and further
to that it was in a flypast issue magaizine (dont ask me which one
because it was a few years ago!!).
But it is a Bf108!!

Not forgetting VonRyan's Express!

IIRC they had rockets as well. Not bad for a light trainer.



Richard.



"Krztalizer" wrote in message
...
said, the chances of getting a REAL russian plane for the film
would be pretty slim!

"Ice Station Zero" - a flight of four (?) MiG-21 models turns into a
real Phantom as it overflies the submarine.

I have a photo from 1981, holding that MiG 21 model (there was
actually only one - the flight of four was only a flight of one,
copied several times). Its quite large, perhaps 30" long or a bit
more. The original model is in a storeroom today in the San Diego
Aerospace Museum.



Also didn't Donald
Pleasence get shot after James Gardner crashed theirs in 'The
Great Escape'?

I thought that was a Bucker Bu181 Bestmann (or a derivative), but I
might be wrong.

As Captain Tenneal would say, "Well, you're wrong." (Sticking
my neck out here) I think its a 108. Dern few Bestmanns around.
Anyone know for sure?

--
Graeme

Currently Reading: "The Day We Bombed Switzerland" - Granholm


Where the heck have you been, Graeme?

yfGordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

Its always better to lose AN engine, than THE engine.

The stationary is from
"Chance Vought Aircraft Departmental Correspondence and neither the cartoon or
the poem are dated. Just little bits of Corsair crap from the binder... Can't
bring myself to throw it away, even though I have boxes of such things that my
wife views as trash.

Thanks, Gordon. Let me urge you to get in touch with a museum to
arrange for the transfer of that "trash" so that it doesn't go into a
landfill when you're no longer around to enjoy it.

I would say the same to others in this newsgroup who have old "trash"
that might be valuable to the historical record.

vince norris