Programme about Amiens Prison Raid

In article , Keith Willshaw
writes

"Emmanuel Gustin" wrote in message
...
"Dave Eadsforth" wrote in message
...

1. I have never heard of a velocity limit on aerial bombs.


Keith, Emmanuel,

Thanks for the info and comments. It strikes me that:

According to McBean & Hogden in "Bombs Away", the bombs
used in the Amiens prison raid were 500lb MC bombs, fitted
with 11 second delay fuses; dropped at very low level to skip
over the ground and hit the prison walls. The walls were
reportedly about 1m thick, hence the bombs would not easily
go through them. I suppose fairly long delays were used to
protect the bombers from the blast of their own bombs.

The 11 seconds would allow the bombs to come to complete rest before
exploding - which 1 sec or 2.5 sec probably would not.

It is not impossible that the need to "skip" the bombs over
the ground imposed flying speed restrictions, as one would
not want the bombs to break up before hitting the target.

Re. Keith's comment below about the choice of bombs - I suspect that
skipping was probably not a consideration when the bombs were designed,
so maybe a crack in the side of the casing was considered a possibility,
and perhaps the bombs had to be dropped at less than maximum airspeed.
That would make the presenter's comment a bit more sensible. But I
still just don't believe the 125 mph figure. I have just looked up the
safety airspeed for a loaded Mosquito and it looks like being around 170
kts.

Another basic concern on such attacks was leaving enough
time for the fuse to arm.

So, given the safety speed for a loaded Mossie, I suspect the speed for
the attack could not have been less than 200 mph, and at that speed a
2.5 sec delay would have placed the Mosquito 730 feet away - a distance
of under 250 yards; probably too close for comfort, so 11 secs does
indeed look far more attractive!

According to the signal sent from 2 group the bomb load
and fusing to be used was:

2 x 500lb M C Mk.IV fused T.D. 11 secs.
2 x 500lb S A P fused T.D. 11 secs.

Keith


Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

In article , Keith Willshaw keithnospam@kwillsh
aw.demon.co.uk writes

"Dave Eadsforth" wrote in message
...

Good day, good people!

I think I already know the answer to this question, but would welcome
comment. I have just viewed a video I took of a TV programme about the
raid on Amiens prison by Mosquitos in Feb 1944. The presenter stated
that the Mosquitos had to drop their bombs at no more than one hundred
and twenty-five miles per hour because 'any faster and they would have
fragmented against the prison wall instead of exploding properly'.

I think that the presenter (an ex-major, so may not have clocked it) was
fed a dud 'fact' from the script writer, but I can't think of where any
such erroneous limit could have originated.

Because...

1. I have never heard of a velocity limit on aerial bombs. Most bombs
in WWII were dropped from a substantial height, and most industrial
targets were made of hard stuff like concrete. Terminal velocity of a
GP HE bomb? Suspect rather high...

2. The safety airspeed for a Mosquito carrying bombs was comfortably
above 125 mph.

The only possible explanation I can think of is that someone believed
that, above a certain airspeed, the bombs (almost certainly using
delayed action fuses) might have passed straight through the wall -
expending their explosion in the courtyard, rather than demolishing the
wall. But if that was the case I can only think that the airspeed limit
would have been much higher because of the Mossie safety airspeed.

So, can anyone who knows anything about the Amiens prison raid comment
as to what might be the origins for such a garbled portion of the
script? Was there any limit of any sort associated with the raid that
might have been so badly misinterpreted?

Many thanks.


There's a copy of the signal sent by 2 group with the
orders for the rain on line at

http://www.raf.mod.uk/bombercommand/raids/ameins.html

This doesnt seem to give any basis for the claimed
limit.

Keith


Thanks - have duly checked out...

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

In article , Krztalizer
writes
I have tracked down and interviewed ~2 dozen Mosquito airmen

Wow - you should write a book about them!

and read most of
the available works about them - first I have heard this. One hundred knots
over the target would have been absolute suicide.

TV strikes again; within a couple of years, folks will all "agree" that this
was a fact. :\

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

An LZ is a place you want to land, not stay.


--
Dave Eadsforth

"Eunometic" wrote in message
om...
nt (Krztalizer) wrote in message
...
I have tracked down and interviewed ~2 dozen Mosquito airmen and read
most of
the available works about them - first I have heard this. One hundred
knots
over the target would have been absolute suicide.

TV strikes again; within a couple of years, folks will all "agree" that
this
was a fact. :\


A dozen agincourt longbowmen with fire arrows could have brought down
the wooden wonder at that speed.


Not ardly, the Germans had their work cut out
with light flak, that plywood structure was surprisingly
tough

How exactly did they aim the bombs?

They had this amazing invention called a bombsight
specifically the Mk III Low-Level (Angular Velocity)
Bombsight designed for use at altitudes below 1000 ft
and primarily used by coastal command for anti-shipping use.

Keith

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

How exactly did they aim the bombs?


The British A-2 bombsight.


The Mosquitos of no 2 Group usually used the Mk III
Low-Level bomb sight which was designed for use
below 1000ft and mostly used by coastal command

Keith

Terminal velocity of a
GP HE bomb? Suspect rather high...

Must be higher than 125 mph. That's about terminal velocity of the
much less streamlined (and dense) human body.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

In article ,
"Keith Willshaw" writes:

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

How exactly did they aim the bombs?


The British A-2 bombsight.


The Mosquitos of no 2 Group usually used the Mk III
Low-Level bomb sight which was designed for use
below 1000ft and mostly used by coastal command

According to the copy of the orders at the Bomber COmmand link you
posted above, Keith, teh bombers were all FB Mk VIs. (SOlid-nose
Fighter bombers).

That would suggest that they used standard WW2 fighter-bomber
techniques - Reflector sight, with a depressed reticle if possible,
and use of the Pilot's 4 lb (1.7 Kilo) Meat Computer to process TLAR
information. (TLAR = That Looks About Right).

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

In article , Cub Driver
writes

Terminal velocity of a
GP HE bomb? Suspect rather high...

Must be higher than 125 mph. That's about terminal velocity of the
much less streamlined (and dense) human body.

Cue for those old jokes...

A brunette and a blonde fall off a skyscraper at the same moment - which
hits the ground first?

The brunette - the blonde guy has to stop to ask the way.

(Yeah, I know - I was just trying to avoid being accused of sexism...)

all the best -- Dan Ford

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

So, given the safety speed for a loaded Mossie, I suspect the speed for
the attack could not have been less than 200 mph, and at that speed a
2.5 sec delay would have placed the Mosquito 730 feet away - a distance
of under 250 yards; probably too close for comfort,

Not to mention, the Jericho Raiders bombed in trail formation - the first guy's
bombs would have gone up in everyone else's faces at 120 knots. Bad form.

G

I have tracked down and interviewed ~2 dozen Mosquito airmen

Wow - you should write a book about them!


For six years, I've researched for a book called "Two Minutes To Midnight", the
story of the Luftwaffe's failed attempts to stop the Mosquito strikes on
Berlin. A couple years back, I held the only postwar reunion of the Mosquito
hunters in Germany - I brought together the survivors of Kdo Welter (jets) and
JG 300's 10th Staffel (souped-up Bf 109 G-10s). I even tracked down Mosquito
airmen they shot down over Berlin. Still working on that one as the German
archival material (four file boxes full) is kickin my ass. For that project, I
began collecting Mosquito photographs, soon realizing that 90% of them would
not actually qualify for the project. Looking at the pile of ~200 Mosquito
photos, a couple friends pointed out that we already have more of them than a
typical YAMB (yet another Mosquito book), so we've decided to over-caption them
with every bit of info we can find for each photo. We're at the 90% stage at
the moment - Dave K is doing all the hard stuff while I do the horsetrading for
more Mossie pix.

Btw, I have an archive of over 8,000 original photos of hundreds of aircraft
types and I am open to trade them for Mosquito photos. Hmmm? Anyone...? (One
note, I definitely have enough of RR299, the T.III airshow performer that went
down in the UK last decade.)

I have tracked down and interviewed ~2 dozen Mosquito airmen

Wow - you should write a book about them!


To finally answer your question, I YAMB!

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

An LZ is a place you want to land, not stay.