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Mini-Winch for FES



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 4th 20, 06:38 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Paul Remde
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Posts: 1,691
Default Mini-Winch for FES

Hi,

This is just a thought...

I’ve recently been extremely interested in the FES (Front Electric Sustainer) sailplanes. They are becoming quite popular. Even very high-performance racing sailplanes like the Ventus 3 are being sold with FES systems installed.

I am the U.S. dealer for DG/LS and they offer the LS8e neo with FES and the new DG-1001e neo with FES prototype will fly very soon. It will be the first 2-seat sailplane with FES. I would love to trade my DG-1000S in for a DG-1001e neo with FES, but so far my DG-1000S co-owners aren't ready for that upgrade.

I'm not very experienced with winches and certainly not an expert on such matters, but I think there may be a nice market for a very small electric winch designed to get an FES-equipped sailplane just up to 100 feet – high enough to use the FES to climb to the first thermal. Even self-launch capable FES sailplanes would benefit from a small winch because they would save much more of the sailplane's battery for use later in the flight - since the initial takeoff roll requires a lot of power.

You can see an interesting video showing an FES-equipped sailplane taking an autotow to about 100 feet he
https://youtu.be/pTeNKM2cXQk

I would think that an electric winch could get a glider to 100 feet quite easily and be quite small and relatively inexpensive. The rope needed would be much less, and the drum could be much smaller – I imagine.

A "level ground bungee launch" to 100 feet would be another interesting option. But I would think that would have risks from by the bungee snapping or coming loose and hurting someone.

Any thoughts...? I'm just dreaming about the future of gliding...

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
  #2  
Old March 4th 20, 07:03 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Steve Leonard[_2_]
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Posts: 1,076
Default Mini-Winch for FES

The "mini winch" could also be a car and an air tow (200 foot or so) rope. Keeps you from having to buy and maintain additional equipment.

Steve Leonard
  #3  
Old March 4th 20, 11:29 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Walsh[_2_]
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Posts: 52
Default Mini-Winch for FES

At 06:03 04 March 2020, Steve Leonard wrote:
The "mini winch" could also be a car and an air tow (200 foot

or so) rope.
Keeps you from having to buy and maintain additional

equipment.

Steve Leonard

Yes, hard to know why you would want to go to the trouble of
an electric winch? Presumably you are thinking of a battery
powered electric winch? Unless you fly from a site with no
winch or aerotow facilities why bother?
If you are at a normal gliding club just take a proper launch to
a sensible height and keep what little power you have in your
tiny batteries for the retrieve?
Dave W

  #4  
Old March 4th 20, 02:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Paul Agnew
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Posts: 306
Default Mini-Winch for FES

A truck and a compound pulley system could get you up to a minimum safe turn back altitude easily enough and no new engineering would be necessary.

https://youtu.be/Q0rv1zOmyWg

Paul A.
Jupiter, Fl
  #5  
Old March 4th 20, 02:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Paul Remde
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Posts: 1,691
Default Mini-Winch for FES

Hi Steve,

An auto launch is a great option on a hard-surface runway, but not ideal on a grass runway like we have at our lovely little gliderport. The airport management and owners wouldn't want us tearing-up the grass.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
______________________________

On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 12:03:43 AM UTC-6, Steve Leonard wrote:
The "mini winch" could also be a car and an air tow (200 foot or so) rope. Keeps you from having to buy and maintain additional equipment.

Steve Leonard


  #6  
Old March 4th 20, 03:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 463
Default Mini-Winch for FES

On Tuesday, March 3, 2020 at 11:38:57 PM UTC-6, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi,

This is just a thought...

I’ve recently been extremely interested in the FES (Front Electric Sustainer) sailplanes. They are becoming quite popular. Even very high-performance racing sailplanes like the Ventus 3 are being sold with FES systems installed.

I am the U.S. dealer for DG/LS and they offer the LS8e neo with FES and the new DG-1001e neo with FES prototype will fly very soon. It will be the first 2-seat sailplane with FES. I would love to trade my DG-1000S in for a DG-1001e neo with FES, but so far my DG-1000S co-owners aren't ready for that upgrade.

I'm not very experienced with winches and certainly not an expert on such matters, but I think there may be a nice market for a very small electric winch designed to get an FES-equipped sailplane just up to 100 feet – high enough to use the FES to climb to the first thermal. Even self-launch capable FES sailplanes would benefit from a small winch because they would save much more of the sailplane's battery for use later in the flight - since the initial takeoff roll requires a lot of power.

You can see an interesting video showing an FES-equipped sailplane taking an autotow to about 100 feet he
https://youtu.be/pTeNKM2cXQk

I would think that an electric winch could get a glider to 100 feet quite easily and be quite small and relatively inexpensive. The rope needed would be much less, and the drum could be much smaller – I imagine.

A "level ground bungee launch" to 100 feet would be another interesting option. But I would think that would have risks from by the bungee snapping or coming loose and hurting someone.

Any thoughts...? I'm just dreaming about the future of gliding...

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.


Paul, what makes you think a "mini winch" is less complex and less expensive than one that gets you all the way to 1,500' plus? You still need to accelerate the same mass to flying and climbing speed and do it quickly. You still need a guillotine on the winch, a winch driver, cable retrieve, parachute on the cable etc.etc. Going to only 100' has you rely on your motor to get out of that most dangerous place we have while launching.

Herb
  #7  
Old March 4th 20, 03:32 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 107
Default Mini-Winch for FES

For the volume of launches you'd be doing auto tow would work just fine for FES. I also agree with Herb. A mini winch would be of limited utility. Why not go whole hog and take advantage of a full size winch for normal or non-FES launches? You would be helping your club and others and not just adding to your overhead. Maybe if you took on a mini winch as a self educational project for a boutique opperation and didn't care about additional utility or resale value it could be fun but again its hard to compete with auto tow with low launch numbers.
There's good and bad info about winching circulating in the U.S. I suggest looking to Europe for answers. Ask many questions and don't try to fill in the blanks yourself, that's why Americans have such a poor record on the matter.

-DT
  #8  
Old March 4th 20, 04:40 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kinsell
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Posts: 546
Default Mini-Winch for FES

Agree with other posters, not sure how much you'd save in terms of
money/effort/time with a mini winch vs a regular one.

Speaking of that, what ever happened to the great electric winch project
up at Bend OR that set the internet on fire not so long ago?


On 3/3/20 10:38 PM, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi,

This is just a thought...

I’ve recently been extremely interested in the FES (Front Electric Sustainer) sailplanes. They are becoming quite popular. Even very high-performance racing sailplanes like the Ventus 3 are being sold with FES systems installed.

I am the U.S. dealer for DG/LS and they offer the LS8e neo with FES and the new DG-1001e neo with FES prototype will fly very soon. It will be the first 2-seat sailplane with FES. I would love to trade my DG-1000S in for a DG-1001e neo with FES, but so far my DG-1000S co-owners aren't ready for that upgrade.

I'm not very experienced with winches and certainly not an expert on such matters, but I think there may be a nice market for a very small electric winch designed to get an FES-equipped sailplane just up to 100 feet – high enough to use the FES to climb to the first thermal. Even self-launch capable FES sailplanes would benefit from a small winch because they would save much more of the sailplane's battery for use later in the flight - since the initial takeoff roll requires a lot of power.

You can see an interesting video showing an FES-equipped sailplane taking an autotow to about 100 feet he
https://youtu.be/pTeNKM2cXQk

I would think that an electric winch could get a glider to 100 feet quite easily and be quite small and relatively inexpensive. The rope needed would be much less, and the drum could be much smaller – I imagine.

A "level ground bungee launch" to 100 feet would be another interesting option. But I would think that would have risks from by the bungee snapping or coming loose and hurting someone.

Any thoughts...? I'm just dreaming about the future of gliding...

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.


  #9  
Old March 4th 20, 06:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 465
Default Mini-Winch for FES

On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 12:38:57 AM UTC-5, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi,

This is just a thought...

I’ve recently been extremely interested in the FES (Front Electric Sustainer) sailplanes. They are becoming quite popular. Even very high-performance racing sailplanes like the Ventus 3 are being sold with FES systems installed.

I am the U.S. dealer for DG/LS and they offer the LS8e neo with FES and the new DG-1001e neo with FES prototype will fly very soon. It will be the first 2-seat sailplane with FES. I would love to trade my DG-1000S in for a DG-1001e neo with FES, but so far my DG-1000S co-owners aren't ready for that upgrade.

I'm not very experienced with winches and certainly not an expert on such matters, but I think there may be a nice market for a very small electric winch designed to get an FES-equipped sailplane just up to 100 feet – high enough to use the FES to climb to the first thermal. Even self-launch capable FES sailplanes would benefit from a small winch because they would save much more of the sailplane's battery for use later in the flight - since the initial takeoff roll requires a lot of power.

You can see an interesting video showing an FES-equipped sailplane taking an autotow to about 100 feet he
https://youtu.be/pTeNKM2cXQk

I would think that an electric winch could get a glider to 100 feet quite easily and be quite small and relatively inexpensive. The rope needed would be much less, and the drum could be much smaller – I imagine.

A "level ground bungee launch" to 100 feet would be another interesting option. But I would think that would have risks from by the bungee snapping or coming loose and hurting someone.

Any thoughts...? I'm just dreaming about the future of gliding...

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.


Stupid question: since FES (Front Electric Sustainer) sailplanes have a propeller in the front, with very little ground clearance, how would you attach a tow rope without interfering with the propeller? Perhaps you mean a winch launch with the propeller stowed, turning on the FES after releasing from the rope. Seems like doing that at 100 feet is not a great idea, even though FES startup is a lot simpler and quicker than with other sailplane motor arrangements. So at the least you'd want to go to 300 feet or so - high enough to try and start the FES, and land safely if that does not work.

And as Herb said, for a good acceleration at the start, you'd still need a lot of power (at least 100 KW), nothing "mini" about that.

Yeah I'd like to hear more about (full-size) electric winches in development. With the progress being made on electric cars (and trucks) and their batteries that seems like the future of winches.
  #10  
Old March 4th 20, 07:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 2,124
Default Mini-Winch for FES

On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 1:03:43 AM UTC-5, Steve Leonard wrote:
The "mini winch" could also be a car and an air tow (200 foot or so) rope. Keeps you from having to buy and maintain additional equipment.

Steve Leonard


I know a guy who has done this when a towplane was not available. Flying off grass.
UH
 




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