J3 - ENOUGH!!!

"hielan' laddie" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 12:45:15 -0400, Alan Erskine wrote
(in article ):

4 ****ING DAYS!



I see you use MSOE. If you used a real newsreader you would not have a
problem.

J3, ignore the whingers.


Define "real" (don't provide examples of what you consider 'real'
newsreaders, just the definition please).

On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 07:41:41 -0400, Alan Erskine wrote
(in article ):

"hielan' laddie" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 12:45:15 -0400, Alan Erskine wrote
(in article ):

4 ****ING DAYS!



I see you use MSOE. If you used a real newsreader you would not have a
problem.

J3, ignore the whingers.


Define "real" (don't provide examples of what you consider 'real'
newsreaders, just the definition please).



A real newsreader has:

1 proper filtering. This means the ability to filter on _any_ header. It also
means the ability to place the results of the filtering the way the user
wants. Examples: some newsreaders have the ability to tag posts with colour,
so that posts of interest (or of non-interest) can be detected at a glance.
Some newsreaders can tag posts with ratings of interest, which also can be
detected at a glance. Some can do both. Filtering also means the ability to
sort out purely text from binary posts, and the ability to save a post as
text or binary to a folder of the user's choice on a volume of the user's
choice. The filter should also be capable of ferreting out _all_ the files
the user wants, using such techniques as 'regular expressions'. With proper
filtering, a user can find all posts in a newsgroup made by Alan Erskine, tag
them red or give them a +10 rating or both, save any purely text files to
disk, extract any binaries, and then delete the binary posts while leaving
the text-only posts alone.

Note that proper filtering makes proper killfiltering trivial. I don't
killfile based on a poster's posting ID; that is far too easily changed, and
a troll will change it on a semi-regular basis just because he is a troll. I
killfilter based on headers which are difficult for the troll to change,
mostly because they're beyond his control. I would not use a newsreader which
does not have proper filters because, well, there are far too many trolls out
there and life's too short to put up with them.

Proper filtering should also include the option of automatically notifying
the user if certain parameters are met. The user should be able to set the
parameters.

2 proper file support. A real newsreader knows what plain text posts are,
what binaries are, and can use the primary USENET binary encoding schemes,
including but not limited to UUencode, UUencode/MIME, Base64, Apple Double,
and YENC. The ability to read HTML-formatted text is optional, and where
possible should be part of the filter suite. (I, personally, killfilter
HTML-formatted text on USENET. USENET text is ASCII. Hell, USENET text is to
be viewed in a monospace font only. HTML need not apply. YMMV.)

Part of the proper file support should be the ability to detect and view
common file types, including .gif, .jpg, .wmv, .avi, .mp3, so that the user
can preview a binary _before_ saving it to disk. A proper newsreader should
at least know what .csv, .rar, .par, and .pdf are, though viewing them in the
newsreader will be problematic. I, personally, often manually download a few
files and preview them before deciding to set up a filter to grab them all.
If certain posters get a good track record, I'll set up a filter to grab all
files posted by them and save them to disk without bothering to preview. A
proper newsreader will notify me that it has detected new posts meeting my
filters and is downloading/killing/tagging them for me.

Another part of proper file support is content-type support. Not everyone
uses US ASCII. Hell, not everyone uses Latin text. A real newsreader will
support binaries which are named using non-English and even
non-Latin-alphabet systems. This can result in a few files with strange names
such as
'=?ISO-8859-1?Q?A=E9rospatiale_ATR-42_F-GPYD_Air_France_by_Air?==?ISO-8859-
1?Q?linair_05=2Ejpg?=", which really means
'Aerospatiale_ATR-42_F-GPYD_Air_France_by_Airelinair_05.jpg' with a few
accents which don't reproduce well with US ASCII.

3 proper automation support. A real newsreader will automatically do routine
tasks for the user. It will do things such as open up the newsgroup and check
headers to see if there's anything new at all, and if any of the new posts
match any filters, and then perform the filtering... and all without
bothering the user, unless the filter specifies notifying the user. I can
turn on filtering in Hogwasher or Agent and then not even look at either for
days and _know_ that any files meeting my requirements will be dealt with for
me and that if there's a problem the app will notify me. Believe it or not,
there is life outside of USENET, and taking a little time to set things up to
run automatically saves a lot of time in the long run.

4 good customer support. It's nice to get questions answered and bugs fixed
on a semi-regular basis.

In short, a real newsreader allows the user to quickly and easily go through
the posts on a newsgroup, select the ones he wants to download or otherwise
view, mark them and download them or whatever, and to get rid of anything he
_doesn't_ want to have on the group. The user can access any file, in any
format, at will. The user can restrict or not restrict the types of files,
the posters, and anything else which is visible to him on the newsgroup at
will. (Note: the user is not restricting the _newsgroup_. He's restricting
the part of the newsgroup _that he sees_. If he finds, say, 'hangar queen'
pix objectionable, then a simple filter removes them... for him. If he wants
to prevent others from posting/downloading such pix, then he's got a problem.
Well, several problems.) Any newsreader which does not allow such freedom is
not a real newsreader. MSOE does not meet any of the above criteria. It is
not a real newsreader. YMMV, but I certainly found it lacking and moved to a
real newsreader within days of first going on USENET. (I wasn't particularly
impressed with it as an email client, either, and dumped it entirely shortly
thereafter.)

"hielan' laddie" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 07:41:41 -0400, Alan Erskine wrote
(in article ):

Define "real" (don't provide examples of what you consider 'real'
newsreaders, just the definition please).



A real newsreader has:

1 proper filtering. This means the ability to filter on _any_ header. It
also
means the ability to place the results of the filtering the way the user
wants. Examples: some newsreaders have the ability to tag posts with
colour,
so that posts of interest (or of non-interest) can be detected at a
glance.
Some newsreaders can tag posts with ratings of interest, which also can be
detected at a glance. Some can do both. Filtering also means the ability
to
sort out purely text from binary posts, and the ability to save a post as
text or binary to a folder of the user's choice on a volume of the user's
choice. The filter should also be capable of ferreting out _all_ the files
the user wants, using such techniques as 'regular expressions'. With
proper
filtering, a user can find all posts in a newsgroup made by Alan Erskine,
tag
them red or give them a +10 rating or both, save any purely text files to
disk, extract any binaries, and then delete the binary posts while leaving
the text-only posts alone.

I can do that quite easily - it's just a matter of going to Tools, Message
Rules, News and then "New". Easy.

As for the rest, which newsreader can play videos (wmv, .avi, .mp3,)?
Surely, you still need to have the relevant player installed on the
computer.

OE supports text other than Latin. It's just a matter of installing the
preferred language (the computer will usually say which language it is).

Proper automation - why have newsgroups if it can be done automatically? I
spend very little time on newsgroups - few are worth it (which is why I'm so
adament about what J3 did; as this group is very much worth fighting for).

OE can go through the posts in a newsgroup - it's called "scrolling" - quite
easy to do.

OE can access any file, at will - as long as I have the software to view
that particular format (one of the main problems with any software is
compatibility with other formats).

OE can restrict file formats quite easily - same as for filtering via the
subject line.

OE does everything that you say is necessary (with the exception of some
formats like yEnc, which can be overcome with additional software - yEnc
isn't all that common, with the exception of some porno groups who don't
want people knowing what they are actually posting - most of those people
end up in prison)

As for email; I haven't had any problems with OE - it's doing just fine.

On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 09:40:39 -0400, Alan Erskine wrote
(in article ):

"hielan' laddie" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 07:41:41 -0400, Alan Erskine wrote
(in article ):

Define "real" (don't provide examples of what you consider 'real'
newsreaders, just the definition please).



A real newsreader has:

1 proper filtering. This means the ability to filter on _any_ header. It
also
means the ability to place the results of the filtering the way the user
wants. Examples: some newsreaders have the ability to tag posts with
colour,
so that posts of interest (or of non-interest) can be detected at a
glance.
Some newsreaders can tag posts with ratings of interest, which also can be
detected at a glance. Some can do both. Filtering also means the ability
to
sort out purely text from binary posts, and the ability to save a post as
text or binary to a folder of the user's choice on a volume of the user's
choice. The filter should also be capable of ferreting out _all_ the files
the user wants, using such techniques as 'regular expressions'. With
proper
filtering, a user can find all posts in a newsgroup made by Alan Erskine,
tag
them red or give them a +10 rating or both, save any purely text files to
disk, extract any binaries, and then delete the binary posts while leaving
the text-only posts alone.

I can do that quite easily - it's just a matter of going to Tools, Message
Rules, News and then "New". Easy.

As for the rest, which newsreader can play videos (wmv, .avi, .mp3,)?

Hogwasher, Agent, MTNW all can.

Surely, you still need to have the relevant player installed on the
computer.

Nope. You might need the codecs installed somewhere, but not any player.


OE supports text other than Latin. It's just a matter of installing the
preferred language (the computer will usually say which language it is).

I don't need to do that, it's all done automatically by the system.


Proper automation - why have newsgroups if it can be done automatically?

To keep things properly arraigned.

I
spend very little time on newsgroups - few are worth it (which is why I'm so
adament about what J3 did; as this group is very much worth fighting for).

He didn't do a damn thing other than post a few .rars. Precisely because you
have an inadequate newsreader, you saw _each separate part_ as a different
post. Precisely because _I_ have a real newsreader, _I_ saw the posts as one.
Instead of 35 parts of a .rar, I saw a .rar. Those who had real newsreaders
simply did not see the 'clutter' that those who have crippled newsreaders
saw. The problem is not J3. The problem is your crippled newsreader.


OE can go through the posts in a newsgroup - it's called "scrolling" - quite
easy to do.

With a proper setup you need not do that unless you're looking for something
specific.


OE can access any file, at will - as long as I have the software to view
that particular format (one of the main problems with any software is
compatibility with other formats).

A proper newsreader will access the files using internal resources, except
for codecs. And the codecs apply mostly to multimedia files, so pix and audio
files Just Work. No external help required.


OE can restrict file formats quite easily - same as for filtering via the
subject line.

Cool. So if you don't like J3's stuff, filter out .rar and they will all go.
Or filter on his posting ID. Problem done.

oh, wait, the problem is that you don't want him to post that stuff on
a.b.p.a. Hmm. Sucks to be you, 'cause you can't control that. You can control
what _you_ see. Pity about any delusions of control for anything else.

One reason why _I_ use a real newsreader is _precisely_ so that I have
_complete_ control over what _I_ see in the newsgroup. If I don't want to see
something, that something is _gone_. Unlike some, I _don't care if anyone
else sees it_. I only care that _I_ don't.


OE does everything that you say is necessary (with the exception of some
formats like yEnc, which can be overcome with additional software - yEnc
isn't all that common, with the exception of some porno groups who don't
want people knowing what they are actually posting - most of those people
end up in prison)

Errm... YENC doesn't block people from seeing what they're posting, and puts
a nice big flag with the file name in the subjectline...


As for email; I haven't had any problems with OE - it's doing just fine.



You obviously don't get the volume of mail I get. MSOE died from overwork,
and lacks the controls, especially filtering, to get my mail organised the
way I want it. Eudora, on the other hand...

On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 09:40:39 -0400, Alan Erskine wrote
(in article ):

"hielan' laddie" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 07:41:41 -0400, Alan Erskine wrote
(in article ):

Define "real" (don't provide examples of what you consider 'real'
newsreaders, just the definition please).



A real newsreader has:

1 proper filtering. This means the ability to filter on _any_ header. It
also
means the ability to place the results of the filtering the way the user
wants. Examples: some newsreaders have the ability to tag posts with
colour,
so that posts of interest (or of non-interest) can be detected at a
glance.
Some newsreaders can tag posts with ratings of interest, which also can be
detected at a glance. Some can do both. Filtering also means the ability
to
sort out purely text from binary posts, and the ability to save a post as
text or binary to a folder of the user's choice on a volume of the user's
choice. The filter should also be capable of ferreting out _all_ the files
the user wants, using such techniques as 'regular expressions'. With
proper
filtering, a user can find all posts in a newsgroup made by Alan Erskine,
tag
them red or give them a +10 rating or both, save any purely text files to
disk, extract any binaries, and then delete the binary posts while leaving
the text-only posts alone.

I can do that quite easily - it's just a matter of going to Tools, Message
Rules, News and then "New". Easy.

As for the rest, which newsreader can play videos (wmv, .avi, .mp3,)?
Surely, you still need to have the relevant player installed on the
computer.

OE supports text other than Latin. It's just a matter of installing the
preferred language (the computer will usually say which language it is).

Proper automation - why have newsgroups if it can be done automatically? I
spend very little time on newsgroups - few are worth it (which is why I'm so
adament about what J3 did; as this group is very much worth fighting for).

OE can go through the posts in a newsgroup - it's called "scrolling" - quite
easy to do.

OE can access any file, at will - as long as I have the software to view
that particular format (one of the main problems with any software is
compatibility with other formats).

OE can restrict file formats quite easily - same as for filtering via the
subject line.

OE does everything that you say is necessary (with the exception of some
formats like yEnc, which can be overcome with additional software - yEnc
isn't all that common, with the exception of some porno groups who don't
want people knowing what they are actually posting - most of those people
end up in prison)

Example of a YENC post... one of the pix from J3's excellent post, in fact.


As for email; I haven't had any problems with OE - it's doing just fine.

"hielan' laddie" wrote in message
...
He didn't do a damn thing other than post a few .rars. Precisely because
you
have an inadequate newsreader, you saw _each separate part_ as a different
post. Precisely because _I_ have a real newsreader, _I_ saw the posts as
one.
Instead of 35 parts of a .rar, I saw a .rar. Those who had real
newsreaders
simply did not see the 'clutter' that those who have crippled newsreaders
saw. The problem is not J3. The problem is your crippled newsreader.

No, the problem was J3; he intentionally disrupted the majority of the users
of this forum, with images that aren't even his, and posting them in a
format that isn't known by most of the users of this forum. He could have
respected the majority of the users of this forum by simply posting links
for such a large group of images, or setting up his own website. Or, he
could have simply done as I suggested - post a few at a time (I suggested
between 4 and 40).

Oh and the vast majority of users of this forum use the same "crippled
newsreader" that I use. It's not just me, or a small number of people who
were inconvenienced by J3, it was the overwhelming majority.

As for my question about video players; you still have to have the codecs.
If someone uploads a vid to a newsgroup, I can still click on it and play
it, as long as I have the right player (RealPlayer plays all but QT as far
as I have found).

And I didn't say I didn't like J3's stuff; it was the quantity that bugs me,
not the format. Most people come here expecting to see pictures (that's the
name of the group, afterall - quite specific about it, really); .rar's
aren't pictures, they are a method of posting a large store of individual
images in one folder-like package. Mitchell does quite will just with
..jpg/jpeg format and so have all previous posters. Considering the number
of parts, he could have just as easily posted individual images, just like
Mitchell does; there are methods of multiple posts, but I've never had a
need to use them.

I don't have any delusions of any kind. The group name includes "pictures"
in its title; there is a multi-media group as well, if someone wishes to
post video or audio.

As I said before, I can control exactly what I see (you support that view
also), so why do you mention this again ("One reason why _I_ use a real
newsreader is _precisely_ so that I have _complete_ control over what _I_
see in the newsgroup. If I don't want to see something, that something is
_gone_. Unlike some, I _don't care if anyone else sees it_. I only care that
_I_ don't.")?

As for yEnc, it's used by porno posters for the very reason that it's not
very popular - most people, again the vast majority, won't be able to decode
it.

On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 13:40:39 GMT, "Alan Erskine"
wrote:

"hielan' laddie" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 07:41:41 -0400, Alan Erskine wrote
(in article ):

Define "real" (don't provide examples of what you consider 'real'
newsreaders, just the definition please).



A real newsreader has:

1 proper filtering. This means the ability to filter on _any_ header. It
also
means the ability to place the results of the filtering the way the user
wants. Examples: some newsreaders have the ability to tag posts with
colour,
so that posts of interest (or of non-interest) can be detected at a
glance.
Some newsreaders can tag posts with ratings of interest, which also can be
detected at a glance. Some can do both. Filtering also means the ability
to
sort out purely text from binary posts, and the ability to save a post as
text or binary to a folder of the user's choice on a volume of the user's
choice. The filter should also be capable of ferreting out _all_ the files
the user wants, using such techniques as 'regular expressions'. With
proper
filtering, a user can find all posts in a newsgroup made by Alan Erskine,
tag
them red or give them a +10 rating or both, save any purely text files to
disk, extract any binaries, and then delete the binary posts while leaving
the text-only posts alone.

I can do that quite easily - it's just a matter of going to Tools, Message
Rules, News and then "New". Easy.

As for the rest, which newsreader can play videos (wmv, .avi, .mp3,)?
Surely, you still need to have the relevant player installed on the
computer.

OE supports text other than Latin. It's just a matter of installing the
preferred language (the computer will usually say which language it is).

Proper automation - why have newsgroups if it can be done automatically? I
spend very little time on newsgroups - few are worth it (which is why I'm so
adament about what J3 did; as this group is very much worth fighting for).

OE can go through the posts in a newsgroup - it's called "scrolling" - quite
easy to do.

OE can access any file, at will - as long as I have the software to view
that particular format (one of the main problems with any software is
compatibility with other formats).

OE can restrict file formats quite easily - same as for filtering via the
subject line.

OE does everything that you say is necessary (with the exception of some
formats like yEnc, which can be overcome with additional software - yEnc
isn't all that common, with the exception of some porno groups who don't
want people knowing what they are actually posting - most of those people
end up in prison)

As for email; I haven't had any problems with OE - it's doing just fine.

OE is full of security holes.

Does it do offline downloading yet?
--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

Bill Clinton thinks "harass" is two words.