Made in the USA

"Ron Wanttaja" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 1 Aug 2006 14:43:13 +0000 (UTC), (Paul
Tomblin) wrote:

You may be right about the LSA being a response to the mircrolights of
Eroupe....

Not precisely. The Sport Pilot limits were established to coincide with
the
European Microlight definition. This meant that most, if not all, of the
existing, in-production Microlights already met Sport Pilot. To sell
their
aircraft as ready-to-fly in the US, the European manufacturers then merely
had
to take their aircraft through the new LSA certification process.

Until the LSA regulations were finalized, a US manufacturer didn't dare
produce
an aircraft unless they intended to compete in the already-crowded
European
market.

As for Cessna's proof of concept. I would be very suprised if it sold
for under $120,000.

I would be very surprised if it wasn't between $90K and $100K, since that
seems to be the competitive price for LSA.

I've heard that the new Cessna isn't intended as an LSA. It meets the
Sport
Pilot limits, but Cessna will supposedly certify it in the Normal
category.

It makes a heck of a lot of sense. Cessna has all the corporate processes
for a
Normal category certification, and they minimize their liability exposure
since
maintenance and inspections will still require A&Ps.


snip

Personally, I think Cessna has nailed it. The LSA will be the new 152,
flight schools can use it for both PPL and SP instruction, insurance will be
lower, and they build the brand. And their new "next generation" aircraft
appears to be the right plane at the right time as well.

Even better, in a few years, used engines will be available for the
homebuilt
market.

Nah, they are mostly Rotax. I suspect the Rotax engines will be pretty much
shot when they come out of the "other" airplanes.
--
Jim in NC

On Tue, 1 Aug 2006 14:23:23 -0400, "Morgans" wrote:

Even better, in a few years, used engines will be available for the
homebuilt market.

Nah, they are mostly Rotax. I suspect the Rotax engines will be pretty much
shot when they come out of the "other" airplanes.

Hmmmm. Why? The 100LL issue?

Ron Wanttaja

"Ron Wanttaja" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 1 Aug 2006 14:23:23 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:

Even better, in a few years, used engines will be available for the
homebuilt market.

Nah, they are mostly Rotax. I suspect the Rotax engines will be pretty
much
shot when they come out of the "other" airplanes.

Hmmmm. Why? The 100LL issue?

Besides the fact that they are junk? g

No really, I think I remember hearing that, unlike Lycomings and
Continentals, if the jugs need to be replaced, or the crank, you don't
rebuild the core; just get a new one and put it in.
--
Jim in NC

Paul Tomblin wrote:

snip

All those flight schools looking to replace their
aging 150s would be a sure bet to prefer a new Cessna.


Sales are currently limited by production but the Jabiru 160C is available
as a certified (ICAO not LSA) aircraft for under AUD 75,000 (USD 50k). ie a
new C150 equivalent for the price of a 25yo aircraft and rebuilt for xth
time engine (or a bad 100 hourly).

US price would have to be more with the liability issues

--

regards

jc

LEGAL - I don't believe what I wrote and neither should you. Sobriety and/or
sanity of the author is not guaranteed

EMAIL - and are not valid email
addresses. news2x at perentie is valid for a while.

Lou wrote:
Ok, just spent a week at Oshgosh like quite a few of you and, although
I noticed this before it just hasn't changed much. How many LSA's are
made in the U.S.A.? I don't mean assembled, I mean, manufactured. Is it
really impossible for Americans to design, manufacture, and sell
products at a reasonable price and still make a living? Aircraft should
be one thing my country could excel at. We have everything needed,
materials, knowledge, ability, and desire, but most every aircraft in
this category is either imported or the parts are imported and then
assembled here.
I'm not talking about a product that cost more to make than to just
buy a cheap import. Light Sport planes have gone through the roof in
just a matter of a couple of years. You can't convince me that there
isn't a plane that can be designed and manufactured for a competitve
price. It's not that I am against any other country making a buck here.
I'm just very dissapointed in Americans not even trying. What happened
here?


My theory: An excess of lawsuits.

Current aircraft and aircraft parts are so expensive because
manufacturers are afraid of being sued should anything happen to the
aircraft. IIRC, some legal decisions made 30-some-odd years ago set the
precedent that the manufacturer could be held liable in an accident,
regardless of the aircraft's (or part's) age, and often regardless of
the actual cause. Some aircraft manufacturers went out of business
because they didn't want to eventually end up being sued.

I don't know if or how foreign companies can be affected by these
lawsuits... but I would think that the sue-happy epidemic isn't as
widespread overseas. Therefore, combined with lower labor costs, they
can develop the aircraft cheaper, start them flying over there, and
recoup development costs first. Gaining US certification later would be
easier and cheaper, and therefore they can continue to offer them at a
lower price.



Additionally, getting something certified is a very expensive process,
and therefore more is charged to offset that cost. Avionics make an
interesting comparison. Say you have two autopilots with the same
capabilities. One is certified, the other is not (ie, intended for
homebuilts, which don't need the certification). The certified one will
almost certainly be several thousand dollars more. They might be from
the same manufacturer, and might even be the same product in a different
package. And since the pool of certified products is much smaller, they
can charge even more (supply/demand).

Bear in mind, too, that certified aircraft also need an A&P to do any
maintenance beyond something like changing the oil. Those guys cost
money, too. Didn't Canada create a category (called "owner maintained"
or something like that) where the owner is allowed to perform all
maintenance on an aircraft, but by doing so it becomes closer to the
experimental category (no passengers for hire, etc.) and can never
return to normal certified status?

There are many experienced and informed people on this list... But I do
see plaintive pleadings from some with lessor amounts of information at
their disposal... For those who don't understand why we (USA) can't
market a 'cheap' LSA, follow me through... Your lack of business
experience shows... The cost of labor is miniscule compared to the
regulatory costs...

So you want to manufacture the WHiz Bang 4, that you drew up in your
spare time at your real job...
OK, ya gotta have a shop to work in... So go lease a factory
building... BANG, ya got overhead! And you have to feed it every month,
even while you are still trying to put the business together...

Now the building lessor will insist that you carry loss insurance in
case you destroy his building, and he will insist on public liability
insurance in case what you do in the building gets him sued.. So poof,
you got two monthly insurance payments and you haven't even unrolled
the drawings for your airplane...

Now ya gotta buy some equipment - MIG, saws, brakes, compressor, air
tools, steel, aluminum, and mucho more... Do you have the dough? If
not, ya gotta get a loan... Want a loan? The bank manager informs you
that he needs to see your business plan... Don't have one? Go to the
library and do some research... Finally, after 6 to 12 months of
scrambling you have a business plan that convinces the bank to take a
chance on you, but only for 25% of what you wanted...

OK, now ya got this far, you need to hire some employees... So ya shop
around the neighbors, local bar, the coffee shop, etc... What you will
find is that for all the folks leaning on their elbows and complaining
they can't get a job, 98% will disappear when actually offered a job...
2/3 of those left will fail the drug test...
Drug test???
Yup, your insurer for 'Workmans Comp' will insist on it...
Oh yeah, did I mention that you will need Workmans Comp insurance...
Another monthly payment, badda boom, badda bing... Having fun yet?

Anyway, you have persevered up to this point, it's Monday morning, the
help shows up (well half of them do) and you are ready to start
building airplanes... mebbe... Do you have enough materials on hand?
(heh, heh, the aluminum isn't in yet - you make a mental note to call
the distributor and find out when it will be in) Do your people know
what to do?... So you set about teaching - tough to be in 3 places at
once, eh!... The first thing one says is, "hey boss, when do we get
paid?"...

Ah yes, pay roll!!! So off to the bank you go to set up a business
checking account... The pretty little teller (the one with the great
bazooms) says, "fine Mr. Smith, now I just need your federal employer
number and a copy of your DBA certificate... Federal employer number,
DBA??????

Yup, and along with that you likely get to meet some very nice people
from the:
EPA
DNR
OSHA
FAA
State
County
Township

You will find that you need appropriate signage, handicap parking
stripes, ramps along side of stairs, curbs and steps marked with safety
yellow paint, non slip treads, OSHA approved cabinets for storing
flammables, eye wash stations, whole body showers, and a great long
list of other stuff...

I could go on in great detail for tens of thousands of words, but I
won't applause... Anyway, the point of this for those who have never
actually started a business, is that there is a whole bunch you don't
know about our FREE country...

denny

Denny,
Your assuming quite a few things here, like, the person starting
this has never owned or operated a business before, never built a
plane, or is in Jacksonville FL. Lets look at the same thing from
another angle.
A person builds a plane, He likes the results but decides to design
and build his own that would qualify for the LSA. He sets up his
garage, basement, shed with tools he already owns. Then proceeds to
make the necessary jigs and tables, just as before but for his new
design. He goes ahead and builds the new design, fly's it, test it, all
the while he is making note after note on changes and efficiencies. By
now he has a great idea on cost for just one plane and he has spent
well under $70.000. Now we all know that any profit and overhead on
top of this will just raise the price to the average of what is offered
now.
Remember, the jigs are made and paid for, the changes will make it
more efficient, and purchasing products in bulk will help make them
less expensive. Now you write your business plan. An equity loan will
help with the money, Renting a factory could be as simple as renting a
hanger, you certainly wouldn't be dumb enough to start in the business
district of downtown. Employee's, why would you need more than one?
Roll up your sleeves and do the work yourself, better yet, get a
partner who would like to start in on this. As for the DNR, OSHA, and
the rest of Gilligans Island, unless your dumb enough to name your
business something like, "Come and Audit Me Inc." your not going to
hear from these guys. I realize that I'v never owned an airplance
factory, but I also beleive that companies like Van's didn't start out
in a factory either. To give up before trying is definite defeat.
Lou

("Denny" wrote)
(snippy snippy)
So you want to manufacture the WHiz Bang 4, that you drew up in your spare
time at your real job...
OK, ya gotta have a shop to work in... So go lease a factory building...
BANG, ya got overhead! And you have to feed it every month, even while you
are still trying to put the business together...


"Hello, China?"


Montbwack

Lou wrote:
Denny,
snip snip...

Both of you make very convincing arguments! Hopefully reality is
somewhere in between.

I subscribe to the school of thought that while "good" help is hard to
find, it's hard to put a price on great help.