Oxygen Generators

Question to clarify how EDS works: I assume that the pilot controls the respiration rate and that inhaling triggers the release of O2 from the EDS.

On Sunday, September 29, 2013 11:04:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

I wonder if there might be a training effect from the "poosh" of the EDS
system, such that a pilot tends to stop inhaling sooner than he
otherwise would.

I can imagine that EDS might train a pilot to take MORE SHALLOW breathes, but the body's autonomic system would then detect an imbalance and prompt the pilot to take MORE FREQUENT breathes in order to establish proper O2 (and CO2) blood levels. Conscious breathing disrupts the autonomic regulation process.

If your pulse oximeter reads low, then turn up the O2 delivery rate or descend. Do you use Aerox Silicone mask or similar with EDS above 18000?

wrote in message
...
That's amazing at your age Eric. Probably a defective oximeter.

Also could be that he has reinoids syndrome (sp?) or something , which
causes the blood flow to the fingers to be almost completely cut off when
the fingers get cold, and they get cold very easily with this condition.

Try hooking the sensor up to your ear lobe. Really.

Jim in NC

On Thursday, September 26, 2013 11:49:23 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
wrote, On 9/26/2013 12:10 PM:

On Monday, September 23, 2013 2:39:28 PM UTC-8, JohnDeRosa wrote:

On Monday, September 23, 2013 12:56:34 PM UTC-5, Vaughn wrote:

Fly one with with a pulse oximeter ($39.99 at Walmart) to verify

that it works for you... Vaughn Actually only $35 at Walmart.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Choicemmed...r-1ct/17325061





Pulse oximeters are poor indicators of O2 saturation for glider

pilots. Peripheral (as in fingers)vaso-constriction is common at the

temperature and altitudes we fly. I used one for a few years and was

over consuming Oxygen in an effort to keep the saturation above 95%.

I use a EDS delivery system and consistantly got values of around 86%

when above 6000 feet. I actually went to a Pulmonologist to see

what, if anything, was wrong with my lungs and found that my lung

capacity and ventilation were above normal. So I tossed out the

oximeter and just trust the equipment to deliver the right amount of

O2. So far so good.



Since I can keep O2 saturation above 95% at even 18000' using the normal

EDS settings, does that mean I have excellent circulation? Or really

good lung function?



It does drop into the 90-95% range sometimes, but that's also when I

realize my breathing is very shallow; i.e., I don't seem to be inhaling

very much after I hear the "poosh" of the EDS oxygen pulse.



--

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to

email me)

- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

I think it probably means you are in good health and have good equipment and procedures.

I've experience hyperventilation induced hypoxia. You will feel horrible. Tingling extremities, headache, and yeah... a fingertip pulse ox reading of 92 - 95%.

Unmentioned so far... hypoxia comes with tachycardia. So when you see 92%+ saturation but 110 - 120 pulse rate, there's your confirmation. If you have a decent quality (e.g. Nonin) pulse ox, you see a strong pulse indication, high saturation, pulse below 90 and you feel normal and alert, you are doing it right.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Monday, September 30, 2013 10:32:02 AM UTC-5, Morgans wrote:
wrote in message ... That's amazing at your age Eric. Probably a defective oximeter. Also could be that he has reinoids syndrome (sp?) or something , which causes the blood flow to the fingers to be almost completely cut off when the fingers get cold, and they get cold very easily with this condition. Try hooking the sensor up to your ear lobe. Really. Jim in NC

I believe the condition you are referring to is "Raynaud's Phenomenon". And you're right .... it can/does restrict blood flow to some finger tips due to stress and/or cold. Finger tips could even turn blue.

if you have a tendency to cold hands, that means that your perfusion to the extremity is poorer. Not necessarily a problem but your 02 sat will read lower than your core saturations. this can happen even at sea level.

Mark J

son_of_flubber wrote, On 9/30/2013 6:20 AM:
Question to clarify how EDS works: I assume that the pilot controls
the respiration rate and that inhaling triggers the release of O2
from the EDS.

On Sunday, September 29, 2013 11:04:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell
wrote:

I wonder if there might be a training effect from the "poosh" of
the EDS system, such that a pilot tends to stop inhaling sooner
than he otherwise would.

I can imagine that EDS might train a pilot to take MORE SHALLOW
breathes, but the body's autonomic system would then detect an
imbalance and prompt the pilot to take MORE FREQUENT breathes in
order to establish proper O2 (and CO2) blood levels. Conscious
breathing disrupts the autonomic regulation process.

If your pulse oximeter reads low, then turn up the O2 delivery rate
or descend. Do you use Aerox Silicone mask or similar with EDS above
18000?

The pilot does control his respiration rate while using an EDS, but the
EDS will not deliver an oxygen pulse if the next inhalation occurs too
soon; i.e., it limits the maximum rate at which it will deliver oxygen
pulses.

It's been 15 years or so (pre-oximeter availability) since I went above
18,000', but I always used a cannula with EDS, never a mask. I would
ocasionally increase the flow (double or more), but never noticed any
change in how I felt or my thinking, even after several minutes, so I
assumed I was getting sufficient oxygen.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

Evan Ludeman wrote, On 9/30/2013 9:15 AM:
On Thursday, September 26, 2013 11:49:23 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell
wrote:



Since I can keep O2 saturation above 95% at even 18000' using the
normal

EDS settings, does that mean I have excellent circulation? Or
really

good lung function?



It does drop into the 90-95% range sometimes, but that's also when
I

realize my breathing is very shallow; i.e., I don't seem to be
inhaling

very much after I hear the "poosh" of the EDS oxygen pulse.


I think it probably means you are in good health and have good
equipment and procedures.

I've experience hyperventilation induced hypoxia. You will feel
horrible. Tingling extremities, headache, and yeah... a fingertip
pulse ox reading of 92 - 95%.

Unmentioned so far... hypoxia comes with tachycardia. So when you
see 92%+ saturation but 110 - 120 pulse rate, there's your
confirmation. If you have a decent quality (e.g. Nonin) pulse ox,
you see a strong pulse indication, high saturation, pulse below 90
and you feel normal and alert, you are doing it right.

My pulse rate is always under 90, and normally under 80, except
sometimes for the first few minutes after shutting off the engine.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

If you are going to use an EDS system, then you need to know how it is
meant to work (and from some of the comments on the thread clearly some
posters don't).

The EDS system gives a pulse of O2 at the beginning of the breathing cycle,
the length of the pulse depends on the ambient pressure. When you inhale,
the oxygen used by the lungs is taken from the air that ends up down there
any oxygen in the upper respiratory tract is unused and breathed out.

If you stop inhaling at the end of the pulse ('shallow breathing') then the
oxygen at the end of the pulse is wasted, it never gets down to the lungs.
The EDS box doesn't know that so you are under delivering useful oxygen.

Constant flow systems enrich all the air in the system, so 50% plus of the
oxygen you pay for is wasted.

You need to be aware of the need to breathe normally. I have used EDS with
cannula up to 24,000ft or so without issues. I have had an altitude
chamber run so I can recognise the symptoms of anoxia (yes, I know it can
creep up on you).

I have gotten away with using EDS with

cannula up to 24,000ft or so without issues. I have had an altitude

chamber run so I can recognise the symptoms of anoxia (yes, I know it can

creep up on you).


Fixed it for you. Sorry, hot button issue. I am aware of pilots having flown the EDS/cannula system to around 27K, once or twice. That doesn't mean it's something we ought to brag about. The guy that did that has since smartened up, uses an EDS mask above 18K, has a nice constant flow backup system in place.

On constant flow, use of a mask above 18K is even more important. You probably can achieve good oxygen saturation on a constant flow cannula at 25K, but the flow rate will have to be high to do it (several liters/minute). Misleading advertising aside, a good quality rebreather mask is a far more efficient delivery device than a "pink mustache".

Evan Ludeman (Mt Wash Wave Camp Ox Nag)