Hellcat Mk I - NICE ! ! !

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Enzo Matrix" wrote in message
...
Steven's link http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avf6f.html#m4 states "The
Hellcat Is did not participate in the Normandy invasion in June 1944".

It seems most unlikely that a valuable resource such as a squadron of very
potent fighters would have sat out the biggest operation of the war. It
may be splitting hairs, but there is a way that we can *both* be right. It
is possible that Emperor's Hellcats were directly involved in fighter
cover for the ASW screen, either in the Western Approaches or in the
English Channel itself, and so did not actually make an appearance over
the Normandy beach head. Therefore, they didn't actually *participate* in
the invasion, but they did *support* it.


Then why isn't HMS Emperor listed among the participating ships of Operation
NEPTUNE, and why isn't the Normandy invasion mentioned in the history of 800
Squadron?


The question might better be "What does the
official 800 Squadron history say it was doing
during the time of June 1 to June 10, 1944?
What does the official history of HMS Emperor say
it was doing in that same time period. Not the
web history, but the official history in the RN
archives.

If you go to
http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive....RT/EMPEROR.htm
, in the body it makes no mention of Emperor
supporting the Normandy landings. But if you
look at the sidebar, it lists Normandy 1944 among
its battle honors.

There seems to be similar holes in 800 squadron's
history as it appears on the web. One source
mentions their support of the Tirpitz raids, but
makes no mention of them in the invasion of
southern France in the body of the history. But
it lists Southern France 1944 as a battle honor.

This source,
http://www.answers.com/topic/no-800-naval-air-squadron
indicates 800 Squadron was in the process of
absorbing 804 Squadron in June, 1944 before
participating in the invasion of Southern France.

It is possible that 800 was busy absorbing 804 at
the time of the invasion and Emperor was present
in an ASW role sans 800 Squadron.

One needs to get to the original sources to truly
answer the question of Emperor being at or near
Normandy. As you can see, the web is not always
consistent.



--
Lynn in StLou
REMOVETHIS anti-spam measure to reply

Lynn in StLou wrote:
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Enzo Matrix" wrote in message
...
Steven's link http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avf6f.html#m4 states "The
Hellcat Is did not participate in the Normandy invasion in June
1944". It seems most unlikely that a valuable resource such as a
squadron
of very potent fighters would have sat out the biggest operation of
the war. It may be splitting hairs, but there is a way that we can
*both* be right. It is possible that Emperor's Hellcats were
directly involved in fighter cover for the ASW screen, either in
the Western Approaches or in the English Channel itself, and so did
not actually make an appearance over the Normandy beach head.
Therefore, they didn't actually *participate* in the invasion, but
they did *support* it.

Then why isn't HMS Emperor listed among the participating ships of
Operation NEPTUNE, and why isn't the Normandy invasion mentioned in
the history of 800 Squadron?


The question might better be "What does the
official 800 Squadron history say it was doing
during the time of June 1 to June 10, 1944?
What does the official history of HMS Emperor say
it was doing in that same time period. Not the
web history, but the official history in the RN
archives.

If you go to
http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive....RT/EMPEROR.htm
, in the body it makes no mention of Emperor
supporting the Normandy landings. But if you
look at the sidebar, it lists Normandy 1944 among
its battle honors.

There seems to be similar holes in 800 squadron's
history as it appears on the web. One source
mentions their support of the Tirpitz raids, but
makes no mention of them in the invasion of
southern France in the body of the history. But
it lists Southern France 1944 as a battle honor.

This source,
http://www.answers.com/topic/no-800-naval-air-squadron
indicates 800 Squadron was in the process of
absorbing 804 Squadron in June, 1944 before
participating in the invasion of Southern France.

It is possible that 800 was busy absorbing 804 at
the time of the invasion and Emperor was present
in an ASW role sans 800 Squadron.

One needs to get to the original sources to truly
answer the question of Emperor being at or near
Normandy. As you can see, the web is not always
consistent.

That's *always* good advice.

However, it does seem a little strange to me that *two* whole squadrons (800
and 804) were removed from the line of battle just at the very moment that
the Normandy landings were happening.

And if that *was* the case, was Emperor employed as an ASW ship without any
aircraft aboard? Sub hunting is a job for a destroyer or corvette - not a
carrier!

This thread has raised some very interesting questions.


--
Enzo

I wear the cheese. It does not wear me.

Enzo Matrix wrote:
Lynn in StLou wrote:
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Enzo Matrix" wrote in message
...
Steven's link http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avf6f.html#m4 states "The
Hellcat Is did not participate in the Normandy invasion in June
1944". It seems most unlikely that a valuable resource such as a
squadron
of very potent fighters would have sat out the biggest operation of
the war. It may be splitting hairs, but there is a way that we can
*both* be right. It is possible that Emperor's Hellcats were
directly involved in fighter cover for the ASW screen, either in
the Western Approaches or in the English Channel itself, and so did
not actually make an appearance over the Normandy beach head.
Therefore, they didn't actually *participate* in the invasion, but
they did *support* it.
Then why isn't HMS Emperor listed among the participating ships of
Operation NEPTUNE, and why isn't the Normandy invasion mentioned in
the history of 800 Squadron?


The question might better be "What does the
official 800 Squadron history say it was doing
during the time of June 1 to June 10, 1944?
What does the official history of HMS Emperor say
it was doing in that same time period. Not the
web history, but the official history in the RN
archives.

If you go to
http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive....RT/EMPEROR.htm
, in the body it makes no mention of Emperor
supporting the Normandy landings. But if you
look at the sidebar, it lists Normandy 1944 among
its battle honors.

There seems to be similar holes in 800 squadron's
history as it appears on the web. One source
mentions their support of the Tirpitz raids, but
makes no mention of them in the invasion of
southern France in the body of the history. But
it lists Southern France 1944 as a battle honor.

This source,
http://www.answers.com/topic/no-800-naval-air-squadron
indicates 800 Squadron was in the process of
absorbing 804 Squadron in June, 1944 before
participating in the invasion of Southern France.

It is possible that 800 was busy absorbing 804 at
the time of the invasion and Emperor was present
in an ASW role sans 800 Squadron.

One needs to get to the original sources to truly
answer the question of Emperor being at or near
Normandy. As you can see, the web is not always
consistent.

That's *always* good advice.

However, it does seem a little strange to me that *two* whole squadrons (800
and 804) were removed from the line of battle just at the very moment that
the Normandy landings were happening.

The squadrons may have been removed for refitting
as part of normal rotation. Most likely working
up for the invasion of Southern France. They are
not the only squadrons in the FAA. But remember
that only one source cites this and it could well
be wrong.

And if that *was* the case, was Emperor employed as an ASW ship without any
aircraft aboard? Sub hunting is a job for a destroyer or corvette - not a
carrier!

This thread has raised some very interesting questions.

The Hellcat was not an ASW aircraft, so its
presence is not relevant to ASW work. Emperor may
have sailed with only ASW aircraft. Not sure what
FAA was using for ASW at that time.





--
Lynn in StLou
REMOVETHIS anti-spam measure to reply

"Lynn in StLou" wrote in message
...

The question might better be "What does the official 800 Squadron history
say it was doing during the time of June 1 to June 10, 1944? What does the
official history of HMS Emperor say it was doing in that same time period.
Not the web history, but the official history in the RN archives.


We'll work on those questions next.



If you go to http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive....RT/EMPEROR.htm
, in the body it makes no mention of Emperor supporting the Normandy
landings. But if you look at the sidebar, it lists Normandy 1944 among
its battle honors.


Been there.



There seems to be similar holes in 800 squadron's history as it appears on
the web. One source mentions their support of the Tirpitz raids, but
makes no mention of them in the invasion of southern France in the body of
the history. But it lists Southern France 1944 as a battle honor.


How is that a hole?



This source, http://www.answers.com/topic/no-800-naval-air-squadron
indicates 800 Squadron was in the process of absorbing 804 Squadron in
June, 1944 before participating in the invasion of Southern France.

It is possible that 800 was busy absorbing 804 at the time of the invasion
and Emperor was present in an ASW role sans 800 Squadron.


Both squadrons were operating Hellcats at the time, the "absorbing" process
would seem to be mostly paperwork.

HMS Emperor is not listed among the participating ships of Operation NEPTUNE
in any capacity. No aircraft carriers are listed. There wouldn't seem to
be a need for them with thousands of land-based aircraft available.



One needs to get to the original sources to truly answer the question of
Emperor being at or near Normandy. As you can see, the web is not always
consistent.


Have at it.

"Enzo Matrix" wrote in message
...

However, it does seem a little strange to me that *two* whole squadrons
(800 and 804) were removed from the line of battle just at the very moment
that the Normandy landings were happening.


Wouldn't seem to be a need for carrier-based aircraft to support the
invasion with thousands of land-based aircraft available. I'd expect to
find the carriers conducting operations somewhere land-based aircraft
couldn't reach.

"Lynn in StLou" wrote in message
.. .

The squadrons may have been removed for refitting as part of normal
rotation. Most likely working up for the invasion of Southern France.
They are not the only squadrons in the FAA. But remember that only one
source cites this and it could well be wrong.


It appears the carriers Tracker, Pursuer and Emperor were on U-boat patrol
about 300 miles west of Normandy during the landings.

http://www.history.navy.mil/library/...-7.htm#cn417-3

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

Major snippage for brevity...


HMS Emperor is not listed among the participating ships of Operation NEPTUNE
in any capacity. No aircraft carriers are listed. There wouldn't seem to
be a need for them with thousands of land-based aircraft available.

The following is provided in another post...

t appears the carriers Tracker, Pursuer and Emperor were on U-boat patrol
about 300 miles west of Normandy during the landings.

http://www.history.navy.mil/library/...-7.htm#cn417-3

This reference is titled *DEFENSIVE MEASURES --
NEPTUNE OPERATION* and in its footnotes mentions
Tracker, Pursuer, and Emperor. The document says
they were part of a force provided by CinC Western
Approaches to counter U-boat movement from the
north. That does not support your position that
there were no aircraft carriers. All three
carriers are credited with battle honors at Normandy.


--
Lynn in StLou
REMOVETHIS anti-spam measure to reply

"Lynn in StLou" wrote in message
. ..
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

Major snippage for brevity...


HMS Emperor is not listed among the participating ships of Operation
NEPTUNE in any capacity. No aircraft carriers are listed. There
wouldn't seem to be a need for them with thousands of land-based aircraft
available.

The following is provided in another post...

t appears the carriers Tracker, Pursuer and Emperor were on U-boat patrol
about 300 miles west of Normandy during the landings.

http://www.history.navy.mil/library/...-7.htm#cn417-3

This reference is titled *DEFENSIVE MEASURES --
NEPTUNE OPERATION* and in its footnotes mentions Tracker, Pursuer, and
Emperor. The document says they were part of a force provided by CinC
Western Approaches to counter U-boat movement from the north. That does
not support your position that there were no aircraft carriers.


I didn't say there were no carriers, I said there were no carriers listed
among the participating ships of Operation NEPTUNE. If you have information
to the contrary please present it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Neptune



All three carriers are credited with battle honors at Normandy.


Can you cite an official source for that assertion?

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Enzo Matrix" wrote in message
...

However, it does seem a little strange to me that *two* whole
squadrons (800 and 804) were removed from the line of battle just at
the very moment that the Normandy landings were happening.


Wouldn't seem to be a need for carrier-based aircraft to support the
invasion with thousands of land-based aircraft available. I'd expect
to find the carriers conducting operations somewhere land-based
aircraft couldn't reach.

I agree. But that would still make it somewhat illogical to remove two
squadrons worth of aircraft from the line of battle just at the moment when
they would be most needed.


--
Enzo

I wear the cheese. It does not wear me.

Lynn in StLou wrote:
Enzo Matrix wrote:
Lynn in StLou wrote:
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Enzo Matrix" wrote in message
...
Steven's link http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avf6f.html#m4 states
"The Hellcat Is did not participate in the Normandy invasion in
June 1944". It seems most unlikely that a valuable resource such
as a squadron
of very potent fighters would have sat out the biggest operation
of the war. It may be splitting hairs, but there is a way that we
can *both* be right. It is possible that Emperor's Hellcats were
directly involved in fighter cover for the ASW screen, either in
the Western Approaches or in the English Channel itself, and so
did not actually make an appearance over the Normandy beach head.
Therefore, they didn't actually *participate* in the invasion, but
they did *support* it.
Then why isn't HMS Emperor listed among the participating ships of
Operation NEPTUNE, and why isn't the Normandy invasion mentioned in
the history of 800 Squadron?


The question might better be "What does the
official 800 Squadron history say it was doing
during the time of June 1 to June 10, 1944?
What does the official history of HMS Emperor say
it was doing in that same time period. Not the
web history, but the official history in the RN
archives.

If you go to
http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive....RT/EMPEROR.htm
, in the body it makes no mention of Emperor
supporting the Normandy landings. But if you
look at the sidebar, it lists Normandy 1944 among
its battle honors.

There seems to be similar holes in 800 squadron's
history as it appears on the web. One source
mentions their support of the Tirpitz raids, but
makes no mention of them in the invasion of
southern France in the body of the history. But
it lists Southern France 1944 as a battle honor.

This source,
http://www.answers.com/topic/no-800-naval-air-squadron
indicates 800 Squadron was in the process of
absorbing 804 Squadron in June, 1944 before
participating in the invasion of Southern France.

It is possible that 800 was busy absorbing 804 at
the time of the invasion and Emperor was present
in an ASW role sans 800 Squadron.

One needs to get to the original sources to truly
answer the question of Emperor being at or near
Normandy. As you can see, the web is not always
consistent.

That's *always* good advice.

However, it does seem a little strange to me that *two* whole
squadrons (800 and 804) were removed from the line of battle just at
the very moment that the Normandy landings were happening.

The squadrons may have been removed for refitting
as part of normal rotation. Most likely working
up for the invasion of Southern France. They are
not the only squadrons in the FAA. But remember
that only one source cites this and it could well
be wrong.

And if that *was* the case, was Emperor employed as an ASW ship
without any aircraft aboard? Sub hunting is a job for a destroyer
or corvette - not a carrier!

This thread has raised some very interesting questions.

The Hellcat was not an ASW aircraft, so its
presence is not relevant to ASW work. Emperor may
have sailed with only ASW aircraft. Not sure what
FAA was using for ASW at that time.

Tarpons (TBM Avengers) and Barracudas. However, earlier in the war Martlets
were often used as U-boat spotters. There is no reason why Hellcats couldn't
be used in a similar manner.


--
Enzo

I wear the cheese. It does not wear me.