How high can you fly?

On Sep 21, 1:37*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
On Sep 21, 12:14*am, wrote:

Well, for starters, things like cables and pulleys have to have inspection
plates just so you can inspect them.

I realize this. I fly Cessna airplanes, and am well aware
of where these access areas are.

Then why ask the question?

That's different from understanding what may be hidden
on an old metal plane I'm not familiar with.

That's what you pay a mechanic to look for.

--
Jim Pennino

I keep hearing about this with regard to old planes:

Aluminum corrosion.(under paint)

"Aluminum, however, is readily corroded when in contact with most
metals in a moist atmosphere due to its highly negative potential.
This type of corrosion is caused by a galvanic action in which the
moisture, acting as an electrolyte, causes current to flow through the
contact of the two metals while an electron transfer causes the
aluminum to go into solution."

http://www.dossert.com/technicalinfo/aluminum.htm

---
Mark

On Sep 21, 1:37*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
On Sep 21, 12:14*am, wrote:
Mark wrote:
On Sep 20, 9:11*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
On Sep 20, 8:11*pm, wrote:
Well, for starters, things like cables and pulleys have to have inspection
plates just so you can inspect them.

I realize this. I fly Cessna airplanes, and am well aware
of where these access areas are.

Then why ask the question?

That's different from understanding what may be hidden
on an old metal plane I'm not familiar with.

That's what you pay a mechanic to look for.

I'll study up on this in depth and find out to what
extent an older model can be examined.

And in the cases where there is no inspection plate and "something bad" is
subsequently discovered, there is usually an AD issued to add inspection
plates or some other method of inspection.

See, that doesn't help when I'm dead.

I'm thinking about the Ercoupe here, as an example.

No Ercoupes fell out ot the sky before the AD to add inspection plates..

I've not checked the accident statistics, but ok. And you're
willing to bank your life on inspection plates?

Everyone that has ever flown in an aircraft is doing it.

You're oversimplifying I'm sure. Yes good for the annual.
But for a prepurchase...I'll need a "fine tooth comb".

( A little aside here, I posed this same question one frosty morning
*to my CFI during my preflight check. While doing the usual
*check of control surfaces, their mobility and connections I
*asked, "what about the stuff we can't see", and he said,
*"during inspections use these access areas here". *I asked,
* "and what about the areas that aren't visible through those
* *holes?", *and he replied, "Well, ya know, anyone that flys
* *has to take a chance and assume the rest is in good
* *condition." *That was ok with me, and off I flew.)

That was simplified crap to shut you up.

Yes. You're probably right.

They fired his ass a few weeks later. Bad attitude.



Fabric airplanes have limited fabric life and tests for the integrity of
the fabric.

I already know that.

Then why ask the question?

Frankly I was referring to the old metal planes, but I'm
glad you've mentioned this point. See, what it is, there have
been several people offer me good deals on some old
planes but I've shyed away, because they are old.

Look, I've read newsclips of planes breaking apart with fatalities.
Rotting fabric isn't what I had in mind.

Bull****.

Whadda ya mean bull****? *I may be a lot of things, but
a liar isn't one of them. *One particular crash which comes
to mind was a businessman in Florida. *So don't tell me
bulll**** unless you've read and memorized every single
Faa accident report. His plane broke up in mid-air. It was
some guy very popular.

Arm waving nonsense.

Just stating the facts. Shouldn't be too hard to find.
It's been within the last few years.

GA airplanes don't break apart unless the pilot does something really
stupid that exceeds design limits.

ITYM GA airplanes that aren't compromised.

GA airplanes don't break apart unless the pilot does something really
stupid that exceeds design limits.

Or he bought a kit plane off someone, or he built it himself
and screwed up the epoxy, or...etc.

Most likely the pilot does something really stupid that exceeds design limits.

Since stupidity is more prevalent than compromised structures,
as a percentage, yes. Now, let's narrow that category down
to old planes people are trying to get rid of. Planes that have
been sitting neglected. Planes that haven't been hangered.
Planes that have painted over corrosion.

These are all the "bargain" planes. The ones that are for sale
because the owner "needs hanger space due to new project".

---
Mark


--
Jim Pennino

Mark wrote:
On Sep 21, 1:37Â*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
On Sep 21, 12:14Â*am, wrote:

Well, for starters, things like cables and pulleys have to have inspection
plates just so you can inspect them.

I realize this. I fly Cessna airplanes, and am well aware
of where these access areas are.

Then why ask the question?

That's different from understanding what may be hidden
on an old metal plane I'm not familiar with.

That's what you pay a mechanic to look for.

--
Jim Pennino

I keep hearing about this with regard to old planes:

Aluminum corrosion.(under paint)

"Aluminum, however, is readily corroded when in contact with most
metals in a moist atmosphere due to its highly negative potential.
This type of corrosion is caused by a galvanic action in which the
moisture, acting as an electrolyte, causes current to flow through the
contact of the two metals while an electron transfer causes the
aluminum to go into solution."

Maybe you need to read some more, like how you can tell there is corrosion
under the paint and maybe why there is very little aluminum to another
metal contact in airplane construction.

And, once again, that's what you pay a mechanic to look for.



--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

On Tue, 21 Sep 2010 11:53:46 -0700 (PDT), Mark wrote:

I'll study up on this in depth and find out to what
extent an older model can be examined.

Do that, take a day, a week, a year, the remainder of yor life. Get
back to us when you're stone cold dead.

Like the cat you admitted shooting, Tiger Boy.
--
A fireside chat not with Ari!
http://tr.im/holj
Motto: Live To Spooge It!

Mark wrote:
On Sep 21, 1:37Â*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
On Sep 21, 12:14Â*am, wrote:
Mark wrote:
On Sep 20, 9:11Â*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
On Sep 20, 8:11Â*pm, wrote:
Well, for starters, things like cables and pulleys have to have inspection
plates just so you can inspect them.

I realize this. I fly Cessna airplanes, and am well aware
of where these access areas are.

Then why ask the question?

That's different from understanding what may be hidden
on an old metal plane I'm not familiar with.

That's what you pay a mechanic to look for.

I'll study up on this in depth and find out to what
extent an older model can be examined.

Typically, all of it.

You have heard of mirrors and borescopes?

FYI, one of the hardest places to get at in older airplanes is usually the
wing spar stuff on low wings.

And in the cases where there is no inspection plate and "something bad" is
subsequently discovered, there is usually an AD issued to add inspection
plates or some other method of inspection.

See, that doesn't help when I'm dead.

I'm thinking about the Ercoupe here, as an example.

No Ercoupes fell out ot the sky before the AD to add inspection plates.

I've not checked the accident statistics, but ok. And you're
willing to bank your life on inspection plates?

Everyone that has ever flown in an aircraft is doing it.

You're oversimplifying I'm sure. Yes good for the annual.
But for a prepurchase...I'll need a "fine tooth comb".

And so does anyone with the slightest amount of common sense.

That's what you pay a mechanic to do.

( A little aside here, I posed this same question one frosty morning
Â*to my CFI during my preflight check. While doing the usual
Â*check of control surfaces, their mobility and connections I
Â*asked, "what about the stuff we can't see", and he said,
Â*"during inspections use these access areas here". Â*I asked,
Â* "and what about the areas that aren't visible through those
Â* Â*holes?", Â*and he replied, "Well, ya know, anyone that flys
Â* Â*has to take a chance and assume the rest is in good
Â* Â*condition." Â*That was ok with me, and off I flew.)

That was simplified crap to shut you up.

Yes. You're probably right.

They fired his ass a few weeks later. Bad attitude.



Fabric airplanes have limited fabric life and tests for the integrity of
the fabric.

I already know that.

Then why ask the question?

Frankly I was referring to the old metal planes, but I'm
glad you've mentioned this point. See, what it is, there have
been several people offer me good deals on some old
planes but I've shyed away, because they are old.

Look, I've read newsclips of planes breaking apart with fatalities.
Rotting fabric isn't what I had in mind.

Bull****.

Whadda ya mean bull****? Â*I may be a lot of things, but
a liar isn't one of them. Â*One particular crash which comes
to mind was a businessman in Florida. Â*So don't tell me
bulll**** unless you've read and memorized every single
Faa accident report. His plane broke up in mid-air. It was
some guy very popular.

Arm waving nonsense.

Just stating the facts. Shouldn't be too hard to find.
It's been within the last few years.

Well, since one of the major aviation magazines ran an article about
in flight breakup a while back which came to the conclusion that such
doesn't happen unless the pilot does something stupid to over stress the
airplane, good luck to you.

GA airplanes don't break apart unless the pilot does something really
stupid that exceeds design limits.

ITYM GA airplanes that aren't compromised.

GA airplanes don't break apart unless the pilot does something really
stupid that exceeds design limits.

Or he bought a kit plane off someone, or he built it himself
and screwed up the epoxy, or...etc.

Most likely the pilot does something really stupid that exceeds design limits.

Since stupidity is more prevalent than compromised structures,
as a percentage, yes. Now, let's narrow that category down
to old planes people are trying to get rid of. Planes that have
been sitting neglected. Planes that haven't been hangered.
Planes that have painted over corrosion.

That's what you pay a mechanic to find.

It is called a prebuy inspection.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

On Sep 21, 3:05*pm, Ari Silverstein wrote:

"Using a fake name, Ari's premise is simple... "a lie is
as good as the truth if he can get someone to believe it." But
heed this warning; he has tried all of this before. Just look
back on the various newsgroups, and there he will be in all his
pathetic ugliness."

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Arch.../msg00204.html

On Sep 21, 3:00*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
On Sep 21, 1:37*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
On Sep 21, 12:14*am, wrote:

Well, for starters, things like cables and pulleys have to have inspection
plates just so you can inspect them.

I realize this. I fly Cessna airplanes, and am well aware
of where these access areas are.

Then why ask the question?

That's different from understanding what may be hidden
on an old metal plane I'm not familiar with.

That's what you pay a mechanic to look for.

--
Jim Pennino

I keep hearing about this with regard to old planes:

Aluminum corrosion.(under paint)

"Aluminum, however, is readily corroded when in contact with most
metals in a moist atmosphere due to its highly negative potential.
This type of corrosion is caused by a galvanic action in which the
moisture, acting as an electrolyte, causes current to flow through the
contact of the two metals while an electron transfer causes the
aluminum to go into solution."

Maybe you need to read some more, like how you can tell there is corrosion
under the paint

Well, sure. I was only chatting here. Didn't claim to be an
expert. I know the paint may bubble. But worse would be
a hairline fracture within, or compromised rivets.

and maybe why there is very little aluminum to another
metal contact in airplane construction.

That was a hastily referenced link. I noticed after the fact
it was discussing contact with another metal. That isn't
a concern of mine. ( remember, I worked at Lockheed )

And, once again, that's what you pay a mechanic to look for.

--
Jim Pennino

On Sep 21, 3:13*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
On Sep 21, 1:37*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
On Sep 21, 12:14*am, wrote:
Mark wrote:
On Sep 20, 9:11*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
On Sep 20, 8:11*pm, wrote:
Well, for starters, things like cables and pulleys have to have inspection
plates just so you can inspect them.

I realize this. I fly Cessna airplanes, and am well aware
of where these access areas are.

Then why ask the question?

That's different from understanding what may be hidden
on an old metal plane I'm not familiar with.

That's what you pay a mechanic to look for.

I'll study up on this in depth and find out to what
extent an older model can be examined.

Typically, all of it.

You have heard of mirrors and borescopes?

FYI, one of the hardest places to get at in older airplanes is usually the
wing spar stuff on low wings.





And in the cases where there is no inspection plate and "something bad" is
subsequently discovered, there is usually an AD issued to add inspection
plates or some other method of inspection.

See, that doesn't help when I'm dead.

I'm thinking about the Ercoupe here, as an example.

No Ercoupes fell out ot the sky before the AD to add inspection plates.

I've not checked the accident statistics, but ok. And you're
willing to bank your life on inspection plates?

Everyone that has ever flown in an aircraft is doing it.

You're oversimplifying I'm sure. Yes good for the annual.
But for a prepurchase...I'll need a "fine tooth comb".

And so does anyone with the slightest amount of common sense.

That's what you pay a mechanic to do.





( A little aside here, I posed this same question one frosty morning
*to my CFI during my preflight check. While doing the usual
*check of control surfaces, their mobility and connections I
*asked, "what about the stuff we can't see", and he said,
*"during inspections use these access areas here". *I asked,
* "and what about the areas that aren't visible through those
* *holes?", *and he replied, "Well, ya know, anyone that flys
* *has to take a chance and assume the rest is in good
* *condition." *That was ok with me, and off I flew.)

That was simplified crap to shut you up.

Yes. You're probably right.

They fired his ass a few weeks later. Bad attitude.

Fabric airplanes have limited fabric life and tests for the integrity of
the fabric.

I already know that.

Then why ask the question?

Frankly I was referring to the old metal planes, but I'm
glad you've mentioned this point. See, what it is, there have
been several people offer me good deals on some old
planes but I've shyed away, because they are old.

Look, I've read newsclips of planes breaking apart with fatalities.
Rotting fabric isn't what I had in mind.

Bull****.

Whadda ya mean bull****? *I may be a lot of things, but
a liar isn't one of them. *One particular crash which comes
to mind was a businessman in Florida. *So don't tell me
bulll**** unless you've read and memorized every single
Faa accident report. His plane broke up in mid-air. It was
some guy very popular.

Arm waving nonsense.

Just stating the facts. Shouldn't be too hard to find.
It's been within the last few years.

Well, since one of the major aviation magazines ran an article about
in flight breakup a while back which came to the conclusion that such
doesn't happen unless the pilot does something stupid to over stress the
airplane, good luck to you.

Oh, I'm not worried about it. They'll plant you
before they plant me.

GA airplanes don't break apart unless the pilot does something really
stupid that exceeds design limits.

ITYM GA airplanes that aren't compromised.

GA airplanes don't break apart unless the pilot does something really
stupid that exceeds design limits.

Or he bought a kit plane off someone, or he built it himself
and screwed up the epoxy, or...etc.

Most likely the pilot does something really stupid that exceeds design limits.

Since stupidity is more prevalent than compromised structures,
as a percentage, yes. *Now, let's narrow that category down
to old planes people are trying to get rid of. Planes that have
been sitting neglected. Planes that haven't been hangered.
Planes that have painted over corrosion.

That's what you pay a mechanic to find.

It is called a prebuy inspection.

No **** Sherlock.

I don't let anyone do anything for me that I cannot
check their work. Period.

--
Jim Pennino

Mark wrote:

I don't let anyone do anything for me that I cannot
check their work. Period.

Like a prostate exam?


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

On Sep 21, 3:13*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:

You have heard of mirrors and borescopes?

Yes, I collect all their albums.

FYI, one of the hardest places to get at in older airplanes is usually the
wing spar stuff on low wings.

Noted.

--
Jim Pennino