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#61
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#62
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"Venik" wrote B2431 wrote: Now notice how you changed from MiG-37 to MiG25 to avoid answering my question. Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired No books have been written about the MiG-37 apart from the Italeri manual for their plastic model :-) But if you mean MiG-31, than, as you (probably don't) know, it's original designation during development was MiG-25MP (Ye-155MP). And a whole book that was written outside the fUSSR telling how the MiG-25MP/Ye-155MP/MiG-31 impacted US planning was? Is this a test? Ooh, I like tests! I suggest reading something about the development of the F-14, as well as the Israeli-Arab conflicts which saw the use of MiG-25s. I promise you will find no shortage of examples of how MiG-25 affeted the US planning. Liking and doing well on test are not the same thing. |
#63
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Any argument with you seems to inevitably lead to you trying to shift
the discussion away from the SR-71 and to the Iran-Iraq war. I understand that this is one area that you probably read something about, but it's just not relevant in this situation. You are asking me about dates and pilots of the lost Iraqi MiG-25s - what does this have anything to do with the retirement of the SR-71? Your questions are totally irrelevant and so are your arguments. Your claims of Iraqi MiG-25 are simply absurd for one simple reason: Iraq never so many Foxbats to begin with. It's a well-known fact that Iraq only purchased 20 of these aircraft. You talk about some documents stating that Iraq had 30 MiG-25s left. Let's see them. Where are the photos of these MiGs? Surely by now the US troops found all of them. -- Regards, Venik Visit my site: http://www.aeronautics.ru If you need to e-mail me, please use the following subject line: ?Subject=Newsgr0ups_resp0 nse |
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"Venik" wrote in message ... Any argument with you seems to inevitably lead to you trying to shift the discussion away from the SR-71 and to the Iran-Iraq war. I understand that this is one area that you probably read something about, but it's just not relevant in this situation. You are asking me about dates and pilots of the lost Iraqi MiG-25s - what does this have anything to do with the retirement of the SR-71? For third time. this has to do with the cancellation of MiG-25 development, caused due to the loss of Soviet-flown MiG-25BMs being shot down over Iran in November 1987. Repeat: a loss of a Soviet-flown MiG-25BM. In combat. Against Iranian F-14s. Something that never happened to any USAF SR-71. This means that it was the Soviets who have changed their planing and behaviour in regards of MiG-25s due to F-14s. It was not so that the USA have changed their planing and behaviour in regards of SR-71s because of MiG-25s or MiG-31s - as you explained above but are completely unable to provide any kind of evidence for. Capice? Namely, Venik, you stated: There've been entire books written on the impact of the MiG-31 on the US planning. And, consequently, I'm asking now for the 5th time: can you finally say what books? Can you say the title, author, publisher, ISBN of such books? Your questions are totally irrelevant and so are your arguments. Why are my questions irrelevant? You said there are "entire books written on the impact of the MiG-31 on the US planning. I'm asking you: which books? Can you name even a single one or not? Your claims of Iraqi MiG-25 are simply absurd for one simple reason: Iraq never so many Foxbats to begin with. It's a well-known fact that Iraq only purchased 20 of these aircraft. Where is this a "well-known fact"? What is your source for this? Can you name a book, article, official document that would confirm your figures? Then, you were explaining about how many IrAF MiG-25s were lost in 1980s: 3. And, you said this is "well documented". I said OK. No problem. Just, can you provide evidence of how "well documented" these losses are? If they are so "well documented", then explain me when was that one lost to an Iranian SAM and where? How about date and place? Who was the pilot? From which unit was he? Can you provide a picture of the plane or wreckage? Where and when was one lost "due to uncontained engine failure"? Who was the pilot of that plane? Can you provide a picture of that plane or its wreckage?Where and when was "another one lost on landing during a test flight"? You talk about some documents stating that Iraq had 30 MiG-25s left. Let's see them. Following is the excerpt from the USN document titled "Speartip 014-90" the title-page and the relevant page I have just e-mailed to you, discussing the number of MiG-25PDs - repeat: MiG-25PDs (i.e. if you can, note the stress on INTERCEPTORS, not on a combination of recce and interceptor variants) - as available in 1991: _ 4. (S/NF/WN) - AIRCRAFT-SPECIFIC ISSUES. THOUGH THE IRAQI AIR FORCE IS LARGE IN NUMERS, ITS FRENCH AND SOVIET BUILT FIGHTER/INTERCEPTOR FORCE COMPRISES LESS THAN HALF THIS SUM. THIS FORCE IS BROKE DOWN INTO ALL-WX/VFR CAPABLE AIRCRAFT AS FOLLOWS: .... MiG-25 FOXBAT A/E 22 .... Speartip 014-90 was an official document, issued to brief USN commanders going to a war against Iraq. So, except you're now going to explain us that ONI was _lying_ to its own people, there were obviously at least 22 MiG-25PD(e)/PDS' - i.e. INTERCEPTOR FOXBATS - in service with the IrAF in 1991. That's a figure that is not including the number of MiG-25R/RB/BT/RBSHs and MiG-25PUs supplied to Iraq. Now, you stated above that Iraq "only purchased 20 of these aircraft". Specifically, you stated that (citate from one of your posts above), "It's a well-documented fact that Iraq acquired only 12 MiG-25PDs". How do you explain this discrepancy? How comes there is a disparity in the figures you provide and what the US Navy Intelligence was explaining to USN pilots going to a war? Would you perhaps like to explain us that the ONI was babbling nosence and its arguments were "irrelevant"? Oh, and BTW, can you provide any kind of document that would confirm your statement that the Soviets have supplied only 20 Foxbats of all versions to Iraq? Where are the photos of these MiGs? Surely by now the US troops found all of them. This was the worst question you could have asked, then there are meanwhile really a lot of photos of Iraqi MiG-25s found and captured last year. In fact, the US DoD and private websites of US vets who were in Iraq last and this year have so far released photographs of no less but 15 different MiG-25PD(e)/PDS' found in Iraq last year. These are obviously the survivors of the 22 mentioned in the Speartip 014-90. To make matters really bitter for you, Venik, however, there are also plenty of photos of Iraqi MiG-25R/RBs and MiG-25PUs, including: MiG-25R/RB etc. - 25105 - 25106 - 25107 - 25108 MiG-25PU - 25xxx (the one photographed with Australian SAS) So, if you now calculate what the Speartip above mentioned, namely that there were 22 MiG-25PD(e) and MiG-25PDS in Iraq in 1991, and add the MiG-25R/RBs and PUs the serials of which I mentioned above, and ignore all the Foxbats destroyed on the ground in 1991 and 2003, as well as those shot down in air combats in 1991 and 1992, as well as the fact that the serials of examples captured in Iraq last year obviously indicate that there were even more R/RBs in Iraq, you come out with a total of (at least) 27 MiG-25s of all versions in Iraq in 1991. Remember: You said that "it's a well-known fact that Iraq only purchased 20 of these aircraft". Photographic and intelligence documentation indicate there were at least 27 of Foxbats in Iraq in 1991, and this figure excludes three examples shot down in air combats in 1991 and 1992, and two destroyed on the ground in 1991. Plus, this figure excludes the three examples you say were lost during the war with Iran. With other words, Venik, this would mean that Iraq purchased (at least) 35 MiG-25s, and that your data is completely wrong. How do you explain this? BTW, your account on unaswered questions is permanently increasing. Meanwhile, it looks as follows: - I asked why don't you explain about the impact of (extremely negative) experiences from the testing of Soviet equipment in Iran-Iraq War, which was _indeed_ highly influential for (the end of) development of MiG-25? - I asked, could you now explain us how many SR-71s were shot down in something like 4.000 SAM-firings against them? - If there is no "verifiable" MiG-25-kill scored by IRIAF F-14s against IrAF and Soviet MiG-25s during that war, then, please be so kind to explain: - why are there pictures of MiG-25-wreckage (like on p.64 of "Iranian F-14 Units in Combat", just for example)? - why are there ex-IrAF MiG-25 pilots who confirm a loss of at least two dozens of Iraqi and Soviet Foxbats to Iranian F-14s? - why do the US intel documents one can get via FOIA procedures confirming Iranian and Iraqi documents, pilot- and eyewitness-accounts? I told you I have no problem with your explaining my books for "lots of baloney", nor stating I'm "thinking stuff up". But, you still have not answered what is the "evidence" for all these "successful" interceptions of SR-71s by Soviet fighters you're talking about (see your previous posts in this thread)? Can you provide any gun-camera pictures or radar bands, or point at any kind of a source that could? - Why do the US and Soviet documents agree with each other that over 60 MiG-25s were delivered to Iraq between 1980 and 1989, but barely 30 remained operational by 1991? - Can you name a single book that would explain the impact of MiG-31 on the US planning? - Would you be so kind to tell us why were all the orders for IFR-equipped MiG-25s for Libya, Syria and Iraq cancelled in late 1987/1988? You furthermore stated, And, of course, three Iraqi MiG-25s were lost during the PGW - two P-types were downed by a pair of F-15Cs on the 19th and one more - by a pair of F-16s on the 25th. In response to which I asked, which IrAF MiG-25s were shot down by F-16s in 1991? Which F-16-pilots scored these kills and with which weapons? Finally, are you able to offer a reasonable answer to even a single one of these questions, or do you prefer to show us how much you like to "think stuffs up" by ignoring them? -- Tom Cooper Freelance Aviation Journalist & Historian Vienna, Austria ************************************************* Author: Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988: http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S7875 Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S6585 African MiGs http://www.acig.org/afmig/ Arab MiG-19 & MiG-21 Units in Combat http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...=S6550~ser=COM ************************************************* |
#65
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Mr. Cooper, it seems you are suggesting that the former USSR fired some
4,000 SAMs against SR-71. Yet, SR-71 was "intercepted" with Swedish JA-37 (or so they say). I don't know, but if I were a Soviet PVO commander in chief in that time, I would be p*ssed off big time! Now, I know that you have a lot of good information, but being an aircraft "fan" I prefer some information over "I dare you, Venik". More like "Vladimir Malukh" first (or good second-hand) stuff. And no, I don't believe that SR-71 was withdrawn because of MiG-31. Also, to be thruthful, MiG-31 was tested under a name MiG-25MP and further developed into MiG-31BM... P.S. what the heck were MiG-25s doing at low-level to be shot by F-5s!? At that altitude their performance is such they well might have plunged themselves into ground! Nele NULLA ROSA SINE SPINA |
#66
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In article ,
"Nele VII" wrote: P.S. what the heck were MiG-25s doing at low-level to be shot by F-5s!? Letting down for landing, likely being short of fuel. Sort of like Me-262s being bounced by Typhoons and P-51s. |
#67
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"Nele VII" wrote in message ... Mr. Cooper, it seems you are suggesting that the former USSR fired some 4,000 SAMs against SR-71. Yet, SR-71 was "intercepted" with Swedish JA-37 (or so they say). I don't know, but if I were a Soviet PVO commander in chief in that time, I would be p*ssed off big time! Well, that's the figure given by Robert J. Gilliland, former SR-71-test pilot, in an interview published by Warren E. Thompson in Air Enthusiast Sept/Oct 2004. Perhaps my memory is not the best, but I think I've read a figure of over 5.000 SAM-firings somewhere else before (not only over the USSR, but also Cuba, North Korea and some other places). Re. interceptions by Swedish JA-37s: perhaps they did it, perhaps not, I don't know. But, what I actually find funny in this exchange with Venik is the fact that his only source about MiG-25/31s is so obviously Y. Gordon's book published by Aerofax (which in turn strongly resembles the book "MiG-25 i Modifikaciy", by G. Dmitriev, S. Sergin, and S. Popsuevich, published by Arhiv-Press, in Kiev, 1995, and some other earlier Russian publications). Consequently, Venik can't know about such examples like an ex-Soviet MiG-31-crew that indeed took several photographs of an SR-71 they intercepted somewhere near Kamchatka. Of course, the SR-71 was still almost 40.000ft higher and far much faster underway than they were, and they've seen it only for few seconds - but they photographed it (sadly, they are also demanding a pretty horrendous sum for these shots). Now, I know that you have a lot of good information, but being an aircraft "fan" I prefer some information over "I dare you, Venik". More like "Vladimir Malukh" first (or good second-hand) stuff. Sadly, you can't talk with Venik in a very reasonable way. Even when TJ got him so obviously with his pants down (remember the story about a USAF B-52 "shot down" over Yugoslavia) he'll avoid and ignore all the facts put up against him like they were never presented in the public. And no, I don't believe that SR-71 was withdrawn because of MiG-31. Also, to be thruthful, MiG-31 was tested under a name MiG-25MP and further developed into MiG-31BM... IMHO, there is an interesting parallel in combat deployment of MiG-25s and SR-71s, then both types were active over Iran during 1987. In that year at least two Foxbats were shot down by IRIAF F-14s, including the Soviet-flown MiG-25BM that got caught by AIM-54A fired in HOJ-mode during an attack against Mehrabad AB. The SR-71s, involved in Op Eager Glacier, were never even fired at by Iranians. Black Birds were not retired because of this experience, but in the weeks after the BM was splashed the Iraqi, Libyan and Syrian air forces have all cancelled their orders for MiG-25PDZ and MiG-25RBV, instead going for Su-24MKs. P.S. what the heck were MiG-25s doing at low-level to be shot by F-5s!? At that altitude their performance is such they well might have plunged themselves into ground! One, a MiG-25RB shot down in 1983, was previously damaged by AIM-54 while attempting to attack Tehran and underway back towards Iraq at low speed and level; it got intercepted by an F-5E that was underway on a CAS-sortie against target in Suleimanyah area and blasted away by two AIM-9Ps. The other, a MiG-25PD(e) shot down in 1986, was flown by the leading Iraqi "ace" of that war (Mohammad "Sky Falcon" Rayyan, a personal favourite of Saddam Hussein), who obviously got pretty arrogant after scoring two kills against IRIAF fighters in the days befo he was cruising at something like Mach 1 and 25.000ft; the F-5E approached - almost running itself out of fuel in the process - from behind with radar on "stand by", got a missile failure and thus attacked with 20mm cannons, spending all ammo in two long bursts - but setting the right wing afire. The Foxbat came away, but only for few minutes: it crashed somewhere in the northern Howeizeh Marshes; the Iraqis were searching for it for three days - without success. In total, obviously in order to increase their range, the Foxbats were cruising at speeds around Mach 1 - Mach 1.9 during that war: Iran is quite a large country. Only once closer to a target, or when threatened by Iranian interceptors, would they accelerate to more than Mach 2. -- Tom Cooper Freelance Aviation Journalist & Historian Vienna, Austria ************************************************* Author: Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988: http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S7875 Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S6585 African MiGs http://www.acig.org/afmig/ Arab MiG-19 & MiG-21 Units in Combat http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...=S6550~ser=COM ************************************************* |
#68
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Tom Cooper
in the weeks after the BM was splashed the Iraqi, Libyan and Syrian air forces have all cancelled their orders for MiG-25PDZ and MiG-25RBV, instead going for Su-24MKs. I find this a bit strange, perhaps you could elaborate a bit? Su-24 and MiG-25 seem like very different type of aircraft to me. 25P-series being interceptors and 25RB-series being hihg-altitude recce-bombers. Su-24, on the other hand, excels in the low-level strike/bomber role (eg the M-series), also having tac recce and EW versions. In particular, I can't imagine that someone would purchase Su-24's for the interceptor role, ie instead of MiG-25PDZ. But Tom seems to imply this above, and this I find strange. Nevertheless, I find Tom's comments on the Iran-Iraq war highly interesting (I guess I should buy his book... . It seems that F-14 did influence the design of MiG-31 quite a bit, and it'd be very interesting to hear comments on how the Soviet experience with Iranian Tomcats affected the development of MiG-31. Otoh, the primary roles of 31 and 14 are rather different, fleet defence vs homeland air defence (against cruise missiles in particular). |
#69
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"M" *@*.* wrote in message
... Tom Cooper in the weeks after the BM was splashed the Iraqi, Libyan and Syrian air forces have all cancelled their orders for MiG-25PDZ and MiG-25RBV, instead going for Su-24MKs. I find this a bit strange, perhaps you could elaborate a bit? Su-24 and MiG-25 seem like very different type of aircraft to me. 25P-series being interceptors and 25RB-series being hihg-altitude recce-bombers. Su-24, on the other hand, excels in the low-level strike/bomber role (eg the M-series), also having tac recce and EW versions. No problem. You need to see the situation from Arab standpoint. The matter was such that already since mid-1970s Iraq and Libya were pushing Moscow to deliver a bomber that could fly from Iraq (or Libya), bomb Israel, and continue towards Libya (or Iraq), doing this at high speed and least possible danger for itself. Theoretically, the idea was not bad, however: Israel is very narrow on west-east axis, so a Tu-22B making a supersonic dash would give the Israelis a very small chance of interception. The Soviets, however, reacted by delivering Tu-22Bs, which were a nightmare to maintain and fly, and armed only with "iron" bombs: IrAF and LARAF needed years to get them into working condition, and never became capable to operate them completely independent from Soviet help. So, although the type saw quite some use against Iran and in Chad Arabs were soon demanding something else. Eventually, the negative experiences with Tu-22Bs in war against Iran (at least six were shot down by 1984), and the poor state of Soviet economy, brought Moscow to the idea of supplying Su-24s instead. The first examples of this version were shown to the Syrians already in 1986. The Syrians, however, were more satisfied with MiG-25, then - compared to F-15s and F-16s - it was offering at least the advantage of speed, aside the fact that they already operated the type. The same was the case also with Libyan and Iraqi air forces (and Algerians, which operate MiG-25s but also became the fourth Su-24-customer). So, instead of developing a completely new variant of Su-24, the idea was born to equip MiG-25s with IFR-probes and more advanced weapons - some of which was already tested for the MiG-25BM project. Given their increased endurance such Foxbats could bomb Israel (or any other place) while operating at very high levels and speeds, and dropping their weapons from outside the range of most of the Israeli air defences. However, in 1986 the first Soviet-flown MiG-25BM was shot down over Iran. Several Foxbats were already shot down or damaged in 1981, 1982 and 1983, but such cases were considered as "accidents" due to pure Iraqi and Soviet arogance. Well, not only their: see in any book or article about Iranian F-14s what is being said about their capability to utilize AIM-54s in combat... Then, in the following year additional similar cases followed, culminating with the loss of another BM in November 1987, and at least four RBs in winter and spring of 1988. Except for a single MiG-25RB shot down over Esfahan by IRIAF MIM-23Bs (and this is the one mentioned in Gordon's book, and also the example on which Venik is so much hanging - solely because this was a widely publicised affair), all the others were shot down by F-14/AIM-54 combo. Upon hearing about this, and concluding that MiG-25s were previously also shot down by Israeli F-15s, the Arabs cancelled all the orders for IFR-equipped MiG-25s, turning for Su-24 instead, and hoping that something that could fly low and haul more ordnance over a longer range would function better than Foxbats. In 1988 Moscow consequently ordered all the further development work on MiG-25s to be cancelled, and the Su-24MK became a reality. In particular, I can't imagine that someone would purchase Su-24's for the interceptor role, ie instead of MiG-25PDZ. But Tom seems to imply this above, and this I find strange. I think you might have misinterpreted me he it was certainly not my intention to explain that the Su-24 would've replaced MiG-25 in interceptor role. Of course, the MiG-25 and Su-24 are completely different. As you observed, one is designed for high-speed/high level, other for low level opertions. But, the intention was not to replace PD(e)/PDS' by Su-24. The main point of the IFR-equipped Foxbat development was to get a strike fighter with IFR-capability. PDZ was actually an idea that came out of necessity to develop a BM that wouldn't have to haul the huge 5.000l drop tank, but as such a PDZ was only used for testing. IFR-equipped RBs were the major idea - not the other way around, as explained by Gordon. That was OK with Arabs, however, then their main interest was to get an IFR-equipped strike-variant. If the Soviets would've then also equipped Arab PD(e)/PDS' with IFR-probes I don't know, but surely the Arabs could have found this a "nice to have" idea. Once the IFR-equipped Foxbats were cancelled the Su-24 was added as fighter-bomber in IrAF, SyAAF, LARAF and QJJ, relegating local MiG-25RBs to pure recce tasks. MiG-25PD(e)/PDS' remained main interceptors of all of these air forces. It seems that F-14 did influence the design of MiG-31 quite a bit, and it'd be very interesting to hear comments on how the Soviet experience with Iranian Tomcats affected the development of MiG-31. That's what I'm trying to get in the moment. For the time being the sole ex-Soviet Foxbat-pilot that was in Iraq in 1987 I've found so far, insists that the BM in question was lost in an "accident". He wouldn't negate that the MiG-25-development was subsequently cancelled, but also he woudn't accept that either the BM downed in 1986 or the one shot down in 1987 was hit by AIM-54s even after being confronted with materials from two independent sources: just like most of the West (especially the USA), the Soviets/Russians think the Iranian F-14s were "dead". From what I've heard, however, the USAF was monitoring that deployment very carefully, and also all the three missions flown by BMs against Mehrabad in November 1987. I've found a USAFIA document confirming a loss of a BM (to IRIAF F-14s) over Iran in Nov 1987, and indicating that there are sat photos of the wreckage. So, I guess a FOIA inquiry or two more will be needed to get the final result. It just takes awfull a lot of time to unearth all of this... BTW, if some self-advertising is permitted: Venik said he read one of my books (he wouldn't say which), and this was a "baloney". Here a review from somebody who teaches War Studies on Royal Military College, in Canada: http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/engr...o3/book7_e.asp -- Tom Cooper Freelance Aviation Journalist & Historian Vienna, Austria ************************************************* Author: Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988: http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S7875 Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S6585 African MiGs http://www.acig.org/afmig/ Arab MiG-19 & MiG-21 Units in Combat http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...=S6550~ser=COM ************************************************* |
#70
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Tom Cooper wrote:
BTW, if some self-advertising is permitted: Venik said he read one of my books (he wouldn't say which), and this was a "baloney". Here a review from somebody who teaches War Studies on Royal Military College, in Canada: http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/engr...o3/book7_e.asp I dare say Sean Mahoney is arms length enough. From his _War Without Battles_ about the Canadian army in Germany with NATO, I'd say he's a competent historian, just not that great at narrative. -- Andrew Chaplin SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.) |
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