Instructors: is no combat better?

Fascinating psychosis at work here . . .

Steve Swartz

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Instructors: is no combat better?
From: "Tony Volk"
Date: 3/9/04 12:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Except that not much of it applies to WW II.

I've been biting my tongue for a long, long time now, but I feel that
this is perhaps the right time to finally post a reply to Art Kramer. My
grandfather was a pilot in the RCAF since the 1920's. He flew everything
from Camels to Spitfires to even co-piloting a BUFF (yup, it's in his log
book!). He was a good enough pilot to gain recognition from Billy Bishop
with regards to his flying (have a great photo of the two of them
together).
He ended up being a wing commander before he retired, shortly after which
he
had a fatal heart-attack. I never had the chance to meet him.
During W.W.II, he didn't see a lick of action because he was in such
demand as a flight instructor. You might think he was a coward for doing
so, but from his bush-piloting days, I am quite certain that he did not
suffer from a lack of courage (probably the opposite!). To get to the
point
of this thread, training pilots (for W.W.II), one of our more treasured
family possessions are the *stacks* of letters he has from the RCAF and
RAF
pilots that he trained, and their crediting their survival in the skies
over
Europe to his training. My uncle was briefly in the RCAF and has
verified
some of these stories personally (my grandfather never bragged or even
spoke
much about his work). I can also tell you that he had the complete
respect
of every single person who wrote him a letter, as well as numerous other
veterans who simply knew him as an excellent pilot and serviceman.
So while I can't give you much proof about whether combat instructors
are better than non-combat instructor, I can offer you proof that many
pilots thought at least one non-combat instructor was (to quote one
letter)
"worth [his] weight in gold". Regards,

Tony Volk


Thank you for your interesting post. And thank you for telling your
story
without flames, insults or sarcasm. I appreciate that.




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"Leslie Swartz" wrote in message
...
BUFDRVR:

You are being too conservative with your reply. I think your
characterization is shared by many- Art has 2 main worldviews:

1) "I was there when the U.S. Made Europe Safe For Socialism therefore I
Am
An Expert In Everything"

and

2) "If You Weren't There You Have No Right To An Opinion On Anything"

The sad thing is, many of his generation are not as greedy, foolish, nor
self centered as he is. He doesn't realize just how irrational and self
absorbed he is. Johari Window strikes again. Guess that comes with a
draft. You certainly pick up the Good, Bad, adn Ugly in a draft . . .

The malady is common amoung those who have trouble forgiving the people they
killed. First the victim of the malady must let them be human. My father
got over WWII when Reagan walked through that SS graveyard. Those men he
had killed were "good soldiers" and they had no more choice in doing or
dieing than he did. My brother has pictures of the families of the people
he killed. (NVA) He got over Vietnam rapidly.

Peter Stickney wrote:
And then, there was Operation Pinball, the ultimate simulator. Real
bombers with real turrets, but the .50 cals have been replaced with
.30 cals firing frangible (break up on impact) bullets. The targets
are specially armored P-63s that make passes on the student gunner's
airplane. There are acoustic sensors in the P-63s that can hear the
impact of the bullets on the skin for measuring the number of hits.

Wooden bullets, if I recall correctly. An old family friend,
now passed on, experienced some of this.

He said the ballistics of the frangible bullets were so far off
from Real Life (tm) that the usefulness was limited.


Jeff

Subject: Instructors: is no combat better?
From: "Jeff Crowell"
Date: 3/10/04 12:01 PM Pacific Standard Time

He said the ballistics of the frangible bullets were so far off
from Real Life (tm) that the usefulness was limited.


Jeff

Actually there was an error between regular rounds and tracer rounds as well.
On a strafing mission you could aim the tracers and see the ground kick up well
behind the tracers. Big difference in ballistic coefficient between the two Aim
the tracers and you would shoot over the target unil you corrected..


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
snip
Actually there was an error between regular rounds and tracer rounds as
well.
On a strafing mission you could aim the tracers and see the ground kick up
well
behind the tracers. Big difference in ballistic coefficient between the
two Aim
the tracers and you would shoot over the target unil you corrected..

Art, that's because of the make up of the tracer round :
Each "tracer round" has a firefly, with 5 years food, packed into the rear
of the round.
The firefly goes into a deep sleep and slowly absorbs the food.
When the round is fired, the shock wakes the fly and his/her arse lights up.
After 5 years, if the round is not fired, the fly dies and the round is
re-classified as Ball.
(it's all in the latest manuals) :-)

Subject: Instructors: is no combat better?
From: "Sunny"
Date: 3/10/04 3:01 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
snip
Actually there was an error between regular rounds and tracer rounds as
well.
On a strafing mission you could aim the tracers and see the ground kick up
well
behind the tracers. Big difference in ballistic coefficient between the
two Aim
the tracers and you would shoot over the target unil you corrected..

Art, that's because of the make up of the tracer round :
Each "tracer round" has a firefly, with 5 years food, packed into the rear
of the round.
The firefly goes into a deep sleep and slowly absorbs the food.
When the round is fired, the shock wakes the fly and his/her arse lights up.
After 5 years, if the round is not fired, the fly dies and the round is
re-classified as Ball.
(it's all in the latest manuals) :-)




ROFL ! Love it.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"Sunny" wrote in message
...
|
| "ArtKramr" wrote in message
| ...
| snip
| Actually there was an error between regular rounds and tracer rounds as
| well.
| On a strafing mission you could aim the tracers and see the ground kick
up
| well
| behind the tracers. Big difference in ballistic coefficient between the
| two Aim
| the tracers and you would shoot over the target unil you corrected..
|
| Art, that's because of the make up of the tracer round :
| Each "tracer round" has a firefly, with 5 years food, packed into the rear
| of the round.
| The firefly goes into a deep sleep and slowly absorbs the food.
| When the round is fired, the shock wakes the fly and his/her arse lights
up.
| After 5 years, if the round is not fired, the fly dies and the round is
| re-classified as Ball.
| (it's all in the latest manuals) :-)
|





Sounds like ball to me ;-)






Cheers


Dave Kearton

In article ,
"Gord Beaman" ) writes:
(Peter Stickney) wrote:

And then, there was Operation Pinball, the ultimate simulator. Real
bombers with real turrets, but the .50 cals have been replaced with
.30 cals firing frangible (break up on impact) bullets. The targets
are specially armored P-63s that make passes on the student gunner's
airplane. There are acoustic sensors in the P-63s that can hear the
impact of the bullets on the skin for measuring the number of hits.

The "Real Man's Paintball?"

Something like that. It wasn't necessarily safe, though. Several of
teh RP-63s ('R' back then meant Restricted from combat duty) were
forced down, generally becasue of bullet fragments damaging the
radiator cores.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

In article , "Sunny"
wrote:

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
snip
Actually there was an error between regular rounds and tracer rounds as
well.
On a strafing mission you could aim the tracers and see the ground kick
up
well
behind the tracers. Big difference in ballistic coefficient between the
two Aim
the tracers and you would shoot over the target unil you corrected..

Art, that's because of the make up of the tracer round :
Each "tracer round" has a firefly, with 5 years food, packed into the
rear
of the round.
The firefly goes into a deep sleep and slowly absorbs the food.
When the round is fired, the shock wakes the fly and his/her arse lights
up.
After 5 years, if the round is not fired, the fly dies and the round is
re-classified as Ball.
(it's all in the latest manuals) :-)




Recently declassified is the equivalent for artillery, which was a
spinoff of Santa's technology. We've long prepared for attacks from the
North Pole, but we never suspected the technology testbed.

Oh, everyone talks about Rudolph, and how his bright nose serves as
Santa's active navigational imaging system illuminator. Rudolph had it
rough...guzzle away at reindeer-sized beer kegs every night, and your
nose might be red too.

But what recently came out is the preparation that the yet-unidentified
Tracking and IFF Tail Reindeer had to do. Gentle readers, I draw a
merciful curtain of security of what he had to do to have his posterior
glow, much as the tracking flare on a wire-guided antitank missile.
*wince* Let us merely say that available soft toilet tissue technology
doesn't begin to meet operational requirements.

"Howard Berkowitz" wrote in message
...
In article , "Sunny"
wrote:

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
snip
Actually there was an error between regular rounds and tracer rounds
as
well.
On a strafing mission you could aim the tracers and see the ground
kick
up
well
behind the tracers. Big difference in ballistic coefficient between
the
two Aim
the tracers and you would shoot over the target unil you corrected..

Art, that's because of the make up of the tracer round :
Each "tracer round" has a firefly, with 5 years food, packed into the
rear
of the round.
The firefly goes into a deep sleep and slowly absorbs the food.
When the round is fired, the shock wakes the fly and his/her arse lights
up.
After 5 years, if the round is not fired, the fly dies and the round is
re-classified as Ball.
(it's all in the latest manuals) :-)




Recently declassified is the equivalent for artillery, which was a
spinoff of Santa's technology. We've long prepared for attacks from the
North Pole, but we never suspected the technology testbed.

Oh, everyone talks about Rudolph, and how his bright nose serves as
Santa's active navigational imaging system illuminator. Rudolph had it
rough...guzzle away at reindeer-sized beer kegs every night, and your
nose might be red too.

But what recently came out is the preparation that the yet-unidentified
Tracking and IFF Tail Reindeer had to do. Gentle readers, I draw a
merciful curtain of security of what he had to do to have his posterior
glow, much as the tracking flare on a wire-guided antitank missile.
*wince* Let us merely say that available soft toilet tissue technology
doesn't begin to meet operational requirements.

Santa needs a girl like Monica.