Question for US Rules committee on AH capability within LX NAV computers?

On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 4:32:23 PM UTC-6, wrote:
-Are LXNAV products with AHRS available by software key allowed? They are not on this list:
-The "restricted device policy" claims there will be a list published of acceptable software. And unacceptable software. That might be useful. Where is it?
-This antique discussion thread implies that XCSoar (which as of 2017 still has a not-very-good AH option) is illegal. Is it? Do I have to run some forked version of it?
-In the year 2017 is anyone in the US competing using XCSoar as a flight computer? On a phone with no SIM card installed?


Since no one here is interested in answering these questions, is there anyone at SSA I should be emailing? Calling? Sending a letter?

The SSA "Guide to Competition" also says exactly nothing about flight computers, instruments, etc....

One thought I have is that you may want to email your regional director, the SSA Secretary and/or contest committee members. If they cannot answer your questions hopefully, they can then forward your message to someone who may be able to answer your questions. Please go to the SSA.org site and then click on "The SSA" and then go to "About the SSA" and then go to "Governance." Once in "Governance" you will see at the bottom "Other Volunteer Committees." There you will find info and emails for your regional director, EXCOM members, state governors, contest committee folks, etc, etc....Good luck on your search for answers. Hopefully, someone will be able to answer your great questions! Renny

On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 3:32:23 PM UTC-7, wrote:
-Are LXNAV products with AHRS available by software key allowed? They are not on this list:
-The "restricted device policy" claims there will be a list published of acceptable software. And unacceptable software. That might be useful. Where is it?
-This antique discussion thread implies that XCSoar (which as of 2017 still has a not-very-good AH option) is illegal. Is it? Do I have to run some forked version of it?
-In the year 2017 is anyone in the US competing using XCSoar as a flight computer? On a phone with no SIM card installed?


Since no one here is interested in answering these questions, is there anyone at SSA I should be emailing? Calling? Sending a letter?

The SSA "Guide to Competition" also says exactly nothing about flight computers, instruments, etc....

I do not fly in many contests so I am not an authority, but from what I can tell it is entirely up to the contest organizers to enforce this, and few (or none?) of them do. First, you would need to confiscate everyone's cell phone. I have seen no one using a cheap analog burner phone. Second, anyone with an LX system with the capability would need to demount it and leave it in the car. With an Air Avionics (Butterfly) there is the ability to disable the AHRS for a period of time to include the contest interval. This method has been approved by the SSA. The log generated by the Air Avionics ISU will state whether the AHRS is available for the scorer to see. This is ludicrously easy to defeat: simply turn in a log from another logger.

I have flown in SSA contest with the AHRS available, and made no secret of it. It isn't a piece of safety gear I will willingly defeat. If I use it to escape from a cloud and live to tell the tail, your damn right I am going to be telling the tail around the campfire that night!

On Monday, April 23, 2012 at 12:53:05 PM UTC-7, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 17:22 20 April 2012, Guy Byars wrote:
Getting back to the subject of the AH here are so many solid state rate
gyros on the market, which will interface to a pocket PC or whatever


Enjoy....

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/airpl...385491648?mt=8

Yes, and I know it works, so that will be a ban on mobile phones then.

One more thing: before you use your iPhone or Android AHRS app for cloud flying, you better try it while you can still see the horizon. All of them I have seen are easily confused by simple accelerations and would be worse than useless - dangerous actually - flying through a cloud.

Thank you Renny and jfitch. That is all very helpful information! I will ask the SSA directly. Maybe I'll ask them what class to enter while I'm at it: I could not find any information at all about class selection for a beginner on the SSA website.

And I do appreciate that many of the apps available that provide attitude info are not worth betting your health on. My concern is that all the instruments I'm considering have the option and don't appear to be "approved" by the SSA. As does the flight computer (XCSoar) I'm most comfortable with. That one is definitely a joke.

On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 5:42:03 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Thank you Renny and jfitch. That is all very helpful information! I will ask the SSA directly. Maybe I'll ask them what class to enter while I'm at it: I could not find any information at all about class selection for a beginner on the SSA website.

And I do appreciate that many of the apps available that provide attitude info are not worth betting your health on. My concern is that all the instruments I'm considering have the option and don't appear to be "approved" by the SSA. As does the flight computer (XCSoar) I'm most comfortable with.. That one is definitely a joke.

Also, plenty of people flying in SSA contests using XCSoar.

This is not an official statement but it "may" be illegal although it is completely unenforceable and is entirely unenforced.

My original arguement (this thread) remains. I say that safety is an over-arching principle at all times.

The US RC saw things differently. They even went to the extent of calling up all the instrument manufacturers and requiring them to produce a "US contest mode." Nope, I'm not kidding. I still refer to it (US competition mode, aka AHRS disabled) as US RC suicide mode. This mode, of course, disables the safety purpose of AHRS, for a couple weeks, even if you have purchased it or own it. They even attacked XC Soar's tiny 1cm and useless AHRS box and had them produce a US contest version of XC Soar.

I say that if someone wants to cheat (cloud flying), let them. They will eventually be caught. And they will have to live with themselves.

I say that disabling potentially life saving safety equipment (see: powerFlarm stealth mode) is quite dangerous and is more likely to kill an innocent pilot who makes a mistake, rather than deter a pilot who wants to cheat using instruments restricted by rules which are entirely unenforced.

A guy crashed into downtown Reno a few years ago when he was sucked into wave clouds. I think AHRS is important stuff.

Finally, their "unwillingness" to answer your polite and simple question here is amusing and unsurprising. Don't feel alone. This is common place.

#goodoldboys

I would not get too frustrated. The available equipment is coming out so fast, I doubt anyone has time to review them all in detail. As someone said, it is difficult to enforce anyway, with all of the easy to access portable AHRS solutions available. LxNav had a contest mode that disabled the AHRS for 14 days last year, but they have gone to a much more simple solution whereby they just add a flag in the igc file that the CD can check if he suspects someone used AHRS. Of course, that doesn't help if the contestant used another portable AHRS solution or submits a file from a backup recorder.. It should be easy to see who might be cloud flying based on the altitude achieved compared to cloud base and whether the climb rates increase or decrease near the top of the climb.

I highly recommend the LxNav system.

Regarding contest entries and class. I highly recommend you go to a contest as crew or spectator and talk to the pilots. There are many out there that love to help new pilots. I did my first contest last summer and have had more that two dozen pilots offer to help me on a regular basis before, during, and after a contest. Many of the regions hold informal weekend contest too, which is a great way to get started.

On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 6:32:23 PM UTC-4, wrote:
-Are LXNAV products with AHRS available by software key allowed? They are not on this list:
-The "restricted device policy" claims there will be a list published of acceptable software. And unacceptable software. That might be useful. Where is it?
-This antique discussion thread implies that XCSoar (which as of 2017 still has a not-very-good AH option) is illegal. Is it? Do I have to run some forked version of it?
-In the year 2017 is anyone in the US competing using XCSoar as a flight computer? On a phone with no SIM card installed?


Since no one here is interested in answering these questions, is there anyone at SSA I should be emailing? Calling? Sending a letter?

The SSA "Guide to Competition" also says exactly nothing about flight computers, instruments, etc....

I have been away from my desk for a few days and am sorry for reply that is too slow for your needs.
The relevant information is available on the SSA web site.
Sailplane racing
Contest Rules and process
Important reading
You will find the applicable guidance documents there.
UH
RC Chair

esquival... I should have mentioned; while I like the LxNav systems, I would not recommend their AHRS option. I do not know the details, but there are apparently issues with it in freezing conditions like those encountered during wave flights. The Dynon portable solution is a much better approach for probably about the same money. The Dynon is easily installed on a ram mount for wave flights and then can be removed when flying in contest.

On Monday, May 15, 2017 at 10:35:22 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 6:32:23 PM UTC-4, wrote:
-Are LXNAV products with AHRS available by software key allowed? They are not on this list:
-The "restricted device policy" claims there will be a list published of acceptable software. And unacceptable software. That might be useful. Where is it?
-This antique discussion thread implies that XCSoar (which as of 2017 still has a not-very-good AH option) is illegal. Is it? Do I have to run some forked version of it?
-In the year 2017 is anyone in the US competing using XCSoar as a flight computer? On a phone with no SIM card installed?


Since no one here is interested in answering these questions, is there anyone at SSA I should be emailing? Calling? Sending a letter?

The SSA "Guide to Competition" also says exactly nothing about flight computers, instruments, etc....

I have been away from my desk for a few days and am sorry for reply that is too slow for your needs.
The relevant information is available on the SSA web site.
Sailplane racing
Contest Rules and process
Important reading
You will find the applicable guidance documents there.
UH
RC Chair

With all due respect sir I looked at all that information and then asked several specific questions (which you've just quoted) that are as near as I can tell unanswered by the documents on the SSA website. You'll notice I'm asking specific questions based on language in the documents you just suggested I read.

Meanwhile other racers have reassured me that the stuff I'm considering is commonly used, but technically illegal, and that doesn't exactly give me a warm feeling about buying instruments etc.

Thank you for the response. I reiterate that if you want to prove no one is flying in cloud there is a simple, cheap solution to that in 2017 that doesn't require all of this handwringing. I suspect that wouldn't be popular as it might call into question some folks measurement of 500 feet.