Report Leaving Assigned Altitude?

Something that has been missed in the responses to your post is that when
given a cruise clearance you can bob up and down between the assigned cruise
altitude and the MEA without any report at all UNTIL you report leaving the
assigned cruise altitude...at that point, ATC can assign 7000 (in your
example) to another aircraft. Don't report leaving until you know for sure
that you won't be going back up. The most practical use of a cruise
clearance is when you suspect that the ride or the weather would be better
at a lower altitude, so you descend without saying a word to ATC and take a
look...if conditions are better, you say "Cessna blah blah requests 5000 (or
whatever) as a hard altitude" and stay there. If they are not, you go back
up or choose an intermediate altitude. Bottom line is that you own the block
of airspace between the assigned cruise altitude and the MEA and can do
whatever you want to do within that block without report UNTIL you make the
report...then you have given up the cruise altitude. Read the "Cruise"
definition in the Pilot/Controller Glossary.

Bob Gardner

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...
1) "N7NZ, cleared direct BMQ cruise 7000". Do I report subsequent
descents?
E.g. "leaving 7000 descending 5000"? Then later "leaving 5000 descending
2000"?

2) Its VMC and I'm IFR to Temple, level at 5000. At 25 miles out I report
Temple in sight. "N7NZ cleared visual approach to Temple, remain this
frequency til you're closer in". At this point I may descend at will,
right? When I do decide to descend, do I report leaving 5000?

3) I'm level at 7000. "N7NZ, descend 3000 pilots discretion". Do I
report
my descent? Can I level off at an intermediate altitude, and if so, do I
eventually report leaving that altitude?E.g. "leaving 7000 descending
5000"?
Then later "leaving 5000 descending 3000"?

Please read the above "do I" as "am I required to". In my (small) IFR
experience to this point I have made the reports in many/all the above
cases, so I'm now trying to confirm which of them are unnecessary...

Thanks!
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

Matthew S. Whiting wrote:
Dave Butler wrote:

----------------
AIM 5-3-3. Additional Reports

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities
without a specific ATC request:

1. At all times.

(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for
a newly assigned altitude or flight level.
...
----------------

Richard, please explain why the citation above does not apply
(assuming the O.P.'s starting altitudes were "assigned").

The AIM doesn't say (for example) "...unless the altitude assignment
is superceded by a clearance for a visual approach".


It doesn't have to say that as it would be redundant. There is no way
to fly the visual approach clearance without descending! So, once you
are cleared for the visual, you are cleared to descend and turn as
required to execute the approach.

I'm not saying you can't descend when cleared for the visual (please read what I
wrote). I'm saying if you're at-an-assigned-altitude and cleared for the visual,
you have to report, since you're "vacating a previously assigned altitude".

My phraseology would be "spamcan 33333 cleared for the visual approach", then
when I (later) start the descent, "spamcan 33333 leaving 5000".

I'll concede that there is some ambiguity about whether the visual approach is a
"newly assigned altitude". I guess you could also argue that in the above
example 5000 is no longer an assigned altitude. Is that what you are saying? OK.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

Richard Kaplan wrote:
"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...


(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a

newly

assigned altitude or flight level.


I agree this is an interesting question and raises an area of some
ambiguity.

I think the ambiguity is whether a visual approach (for example) is a "newly
assigned altitude".


However, my interpretation in all the cases discussed in this thread is that
an intermediate altitude is not an assigned altitude and an approach
clearance certainly is not an assigned altitude.

I agree completely about intermediate altitudes. With respece to approach
clearances, I wouldn't say "certainly", but I'll give you that.


In other words, I interpret the above AIM section to require the pilot to
provide a readbak of any altitude change. That readback might be "N102KY
out of 5000 for 3000" or it might be "N102KY out of 5000 for 3000 pilot
discretion" or it might be "N102KY will cruise 3000" -- any of these in my
opinion satisfy the AIM requirement.

I disagree about "out of 5000 for 3000 pilot discretion". I think that readback
merely acknowledges the clearance and does not provide any information about
when I might exercise my discretion to actually leave that altitude. When I
leave the altitude, perhaps minutes later, I assert that a seperate report is
required.



The AIM doesn't say (for example) "...unless the altitude assignment is
superceded by a clearance for a visual approach".


Take the somewhat more extreme example of a DME step-down approach. Surely
you will agree that there is no need to report to ATC each time you proceed
to a new step-down altitude. Why not? Beause these step-down altitudes
were not "assigned" by ATC; you were instead "cleared for the approach"

I agree the step downs are not assigned altitudes and never asserted anything
different.

which is approval to descend as published on the approach plate without any
further discussion with ATC. "Cleared for the visual" is just another
extension of this underlying theme -- you may descend at will upon being
"Cleared for the visual" as long as you do not violate another FAA rule in
the process such as minimum altitude requirements.

I think the question of whether a report is required hinges on whether a
clearance for a visual approach is a "newly assigned altitude". I don't think
it's clear cut, but I see the rationale for your interpretation.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...

I think the ambiguity is whether a visual approach (for example) is a
"newly
assigned altitude".

There is no ambiguity whatsoever about a being "Cleared for the visual" --
you may descend at will and you need not acknowledge this to ATC.

The only question of ambiguity comes up with the "pilot discretion"
clearance, although I believe the initial acknowledment "out of 5000 for
3000 pilot discretion" meets the requirement in the AIM. I am acknowledging
that I will descend to 3000 but that the rate of the descent will be at my
discretion -- whether that is 500 FPM or 1000FPM or 10FPM or 0FPM or whether
the rate varies during the descent, I am still complying with the altitude
clearance I was assigned.

Let us suppose you are correct that an initial acknowledgment "out of 5000
for 3000 pilot discretion" is not sufficient but instead I need to report
when I choose to begin the descent. Well, if that were true, then what
would happen when I accept the altitude assignment "N102KY will maintain
3000 BLOCK 5000"? With a block altitude, do I have to report every time I
change altitude?

I think the question of whether a report is required hinges on whether a
clearance for a visual approach is a "newly assigned altitude". I don't
think
it's clear cut, but I see the rationale for your interpretation.


Again, there may be some ambiguity a delayed descent after a "pilot
discretion" clearance. There is no ambiguity a "Cleared for the Visual"
clearance -- you may descend at will without notifying ATC other than
acknowledging the clearance. The same is true as well if you are cleared
for an instrument approach -- you may descend at will per published routes
and/or published safe altitudes with no further acknowledgment to ATC.

In fact, that is an interesting corollary to this thread. Suppose you are
flying enroute cleared DIRECT to your destination and ATC gives you the very
short instruction "N102KY Cleared Approach XXY Airport." I maintain that in
this situation you may descend at will as you choose for any visual or
instrument approach and you need not report any altitude changes to ATC.
You need only acknowledge the approach clearance and then you may descend at
will.

--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"Dave Butler" wrote:
I'm not saying you can't descend when cleared for the visual ...
...I'm saying if you're at-an-assigned-altitude and cleared for
the visual, you have to report, since you're "vacating a
previously assigned altitude".

That would be a tortuous reading of the paragraph. My personal
experience is that I've flown scores of visual approaches without
reporting leaving my last assigned altitudes - ATC's never said
anything.

My phraseology would be "spamcan 33333 cleared for the
visual approach", then when I (later) start the descent,
"spamcan 33333 leaving 5000".

I don't recall ever hearing anyone say that on a visual approach.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

"Maintain 2200 until established, cleared for the ILS." Do you report
leaving 2200 when the glideslope comes down?

Bob Gardner

"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...


Matthew S. Whiting wrote:
Dave Butler wrote:

----------------
AIM 5-3-3. Additional Reports

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities
without a specific ATC request:

1. At all times.

(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for
a newly assigned altitude or flight level.
...
----------------

Richard, please explain why the citation above does not apply
(assuming the O.P.'s starting altitudes were "assigned").

The AIM doesn't say (for example) "...unless the altitude assignment
is superceded by a clearance for a visual approach".


It doesn't have to say that as it would be redundant. There is no way
to fly the visual approach clearance without descending! So, once you
are cleared for the visual, you are cleared to descend and turn as
required to execute the approach.

I'm not saying you can't descend when cleared for the visual (please read
what I
wrote). I'm saying if you're at-an-assigned-altitude and cleared for the
visual,
you have to report, since you're "vacating a previously assigned
altitude".

My phraseology would be "spamcan 33333 cleared for the visual approach",
then
when I (later) start the descent, "spamcan 33333 leaving 5000".

I'll concede that there is some ambiguity about whether the visual
approach is a
"newly assigned altitude". I guess you could also argue that in the above
example 5000 is no longer an assigned altitude. Is that what you are
saying? OK.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

I agree this is an interesting question and raises an area of some
ambiguity.

Regardless of what the AIM says, the important question is what ATC
uses these reports for.

Controllers in the past have said that under some circumstances, they
can use the pilot's report of leaving an altitude for separation
purposes.

However, a PD descent isn't one of them. Controllers have said that
they cannot use a pilot's report of leaving an altitude on a PD
descent/climb and therefore the reportis not useful. (However,
according to the .65, this isn't true in a NON-radar environment.)

Perhaps the visual approach and cruise clearance fall into the same
category?

Bob Gardner wrote:
"Maintain 2200 until established, cleared for the ILS." Do you report
leaving 2200 when the glideslope comes down?

Nope, I don't. The glideslope coming down is not a "newly assigned altitude".

OK, I'm grasping at straws to justify my position. I guess (in my mind) the key
thing is that on a visual approach clearance or a discretion to [altitude]
clearance, the controller has no way of anticipating my actions. I can either
start down now, or whenever I feel like it. So (to me) it seems reasonable that
I might be required to report, and I read the AIM paragraph that way.

It still seems to me that the discretion-to-altitude case definitely requires a
report, but, OK, I'll give up on the visual approach since that is arguably not
a newly assigned altitude.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.


Bob Gardner

"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...


Matthew S. Whiting wrote:

Dave Butler wrote:


----------------
AIM 5-3-3. Additional Reports

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities
without a specific ATC request:

1. At all times.

(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for
a newly assigned altitude or flight level.
...
----------------

Richard, please explain why the citation above does not apply
(assuming the O.P.'s starting altitudes were "assigned").

The AIM doesn't say (for example) "...unless the altitude assignment
is superceded by a clearance for a visual approach".


It doesn't have to say that as it would be redundant. There is no way
to fly the visual approach clearance without descending! So, once you
are cleared for the visual, you are cleared to descend and turn as
required to execute the approach.

I'm not saying you can't descend when cleared for the visual (please read

what I

wrote). I'm saying if you're at-an-assigned-altitude and cleared for the

visual,

you have to report, since you're "vacating a previously assigned

altitude".

My phraseology would be "spamcan 33333 cleared for the visual approach",

then

when I (later) start the descent, "spamcan 33333 leaving 5000".

I'll concede that there is some ambiguity about whether the visual

approach is a

"newly assigned altitude". I guess you could also argue that in the above
example 5000 is no longer an assigned altitude. Is that what you are

saying? OK.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.






--
Dave Butler, software engineer 919-392-4367

OK, I can see that I am swimming upstream, here, so this will be my last shot
(see inline). Thanks for the thought-provoking responses.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

Richard Kaplan wrote:
"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...


I think the ambiguity is whether a visual approach (for example) is a

"newly

assigned altitude".


There is no ambiguity whatsoever about a being "Cleared for the visual" --
you may descend at will and you need not acknowledge this to ATC.

Which is tantamount to saying "a clearance for a visual approach is not a newly
assigned altitude". OK. I can accept that. BTW, whether or not you may "descend
at will" has never been in dispute.


The only question of ambiguity comes up with the "pilot discretion"
clearance, although I believe the initial acknowledment "out of 5000 for
3000 pilot discretion" meets the requirement in the AIM. I am acknowledging
that I will descend to 3000 but that the rate of the descent will be at my
discretion -- whether that is 500 FPM or 1000FPM or 10FPM or 0FPM or whether
the rate varies during the descent, I am still complying with the altitude
clearance I was assigned.

Complying with the altitude clearance is not an issue. The issue is whether a
report is required for leaving the assigned altitude.


Let us suppose you are correct that an initial acknowledgment "out of 5000
for 3000 pilot discretion" is not sufficient but instead I need to report
when I choose to begin the descent. Well, if that were true, then what
would happen when I accept the altitude assignment "N102KY will maintain
3000 BLOCK 5000"? With a block altitude, do I have to report every time I
change altitude?

No, you only need to report "leaving an assigned altitude for a newly assigned
altitude". When you change altitudes within a block, you're not doing that.



I think the question of whether a report is required hinges on whether a
clearance for a visual approach is a "newly assigned altitude". I don't

think

it's clear cut, but I see the rationale for your interpretation.



Again, there may be some ambiguity a delayed descent after a "pilot
discretion" clearance. There is no ambiguity a "Cleared for the Visual"
clearance -- you may descend at will without notifying ATC other than
acknowledging the clearance. The same is true as well if you are cleared
for an instrument approach -- you may descend at will per published routes
and/or published safe altitudes with no further acknowledgment to ATC.

The question is not about whether you may descend at will. It's the required
report that's at issue.

In fact, that is an interesting corollary to this thread. Suppose you are
flying enroute cleared DIRECT to your destination and ATC gives you the very
short instruction "N102KY Cleared Approach XXY Airport." I maintain that in
this situation you may descend at will as you choose for any visual or
instrument approach and you need not report any altitude changes to ATC.
You need only acknowledge the approach clearance and then you may descend at
will.

Again, whether you may descend at will is not at issue. If you're leaving an
assigned altitude for a newly assigned altitude, you're supposed to report. I'll
grant that an approach clearance is not clearly a "newly assigned altitude".

I don't think I would "bob up and down" on a cruise clearance. I would request
a block altitude assignment if I want to "bob up and down." A cruise clearance
is also an instrument approach clearance, so once I leave the last assigned for
all I know the controller may be using my Mode C as a de facto report out of
that altitude. I don't have to worry about that possible ambiguity with a block
altitude assignment.

And, I learned a long time ago not to buy into any situation that can become
ambiguous. That doesn't help me nor does it help the controller.

I can certainly descend to an intermediate altitude on a curise clearance, then
level off. But, "bob back up?" not me.

Bob Gardner wrote:

Something that has been missed in the responses to your post is that when
given a cruise clearance you can bob up and down between the assigned cruise
altitude and the MEA without any report at all UNTIL you report leaving the
assigned cruise altitude...at that point, ATC can assign 7000 (in your
example) to another aircraft. Don't report leaving until you know for sure
that you won't be going back up. The most practical use of a cruise
clearance is when you suspect that the ride or the weather would be better
at a lower altitude, so you descend without saying a word to ATC and take a
look...if conditions are better, you say "Cessna blah blah requests 5000 (or
whatever) as a hard altitude" and stay there. If they are not, you go back
up or choose an intermediate altitude. Bottom line is that you own the block
of airspace between the assigned cruise altitude and the MEA and can do
whatever you want to do within that block without report UNTIL you make the
report...then you have given up the cruise altitude. Read the "Cruise"
definition in the Pilot/Controller Glossary.

Bob Gardner

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...
1) "N7NZ, cleared direct BMQ cruise 7000". Do I report subsequent
descents?
E.g. "leaving 7000 descending 5000"? Then later "leaving 5000 descending
2000"?

2) Its VMC and I'm IFR to Temple, level at 5000. At 25 miles out I report
Temple in sight. "N7NZ cleared visual approach to Temple, remain this
frequency til you're closer in". At this point I may descend at will,
right? When I do decide to descend, do I report leaving 5000?

3) I'm level at 7000. "N7NZ, descend 3000 pilots discretion". Do I
report
my descent? Can I level off at an intermediate altitude, and if so, do I
eventually report leaving that altitude?E.g. "leaving 7000 descending
5000"?
Then later "leaving 5000 descending 3000"?

Please read the above "do I" as "am I required to". In my (small) IFR
experience to this point I have made the reports in many/all the above
cases, so I'm now trying to confirm which of them are unnecessary...

Thanks!
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ