Remos G3 demo and AOPA Expo (long)

Gentlemen, I decided to re-post this on the owning group under its own
Subject line:

AOPA Expo (HFD) Hartford, CT.

I had a terific time, drove in and stayed for all three days. I try to
catch the shows on the East Coast and this one was well represented. The
airport was IMC before lunch each morning, but the grass overflow area had a
good showing of planes. I walked the booths on Thu and Sat, the visitor
count seemed the same on both days, lighter than Philly or Atlantic City.
Someone said the aisle space was bigger, I think that's wishful thinking.

There were lots of things to crawl into. Diamond brought their D-jet, their
DA50 five seater, and a D-jet sim with full panel & 180 deg projection, in a
blackout booth. The DA50-IO550 looks like a sweet ride, 3 gull wing doors,
very roomy, car type air conditioning controls, and since the seats are
fixed they have electric motors to move the pedals and another to move the
stick. Entry point estimate is $600K, so I'll just move along.

Epic and Cirrus had their V-tail jet mockup, and Piper brought theirs too.
This time the sales people kept their mouths shut on the insurance numbers.
I think $25K per year scared too many buyers.

Cessna displayed the TDI diesel, claimed they were no longer shipping any
non-glass planes, and the line at their LSA was five to ten people every
time I passed. I did find time to sit inside and it's another LSA I've
crossed off my list. Just like the 152 the legroom is terrible. A manual
jackscrew moves the pedals forward, but not nearly enough. The whole seat
mold tilts forward for rear access so a ground adjustable second or third
pivot slot seems
engineerable. But the headroom is poor too. Looking left or right required
me to tilt my head way down. The all black interior made it difficult to see
the interior details, but the panel is a beauty. Cessna hit a homerun with
that.

There are more and more glass replacement boxes being displayed every show.
I was worried that our 30+ yo airframes would just devalue rapidly, as
younger/future buyers who are being trained in glass would never consider
owning a round dial plane. Two more years and we should have a good
selection of glass replacement boxes in the $15-20K range, with all the
goodies. That's about the same price as an HSI upgrade today. I noted in
another post that the Aspen boys introduced their TSO'd Killer App (AI/DG
slide in glass replacement) at Osh, but they are still doing some flight
tests with the FAA. This company is already shipping to dealers (for demo I
guess), but noted that the FAA told them to change some of the button
pushing sequences, so the cert effort is still in progress.

The biggest disappointment of the show was the large number of LSAs on
display with only Remos G3 highwing having demo models. With so few LSAs
being available at the FBOs, I would think this venue is the perfect place
for general exposure. The problem is the American Importers are using the
"solo
owner/dealer pyramid scheme" to market their aircraft. They fly their planes
to the show, display them, and try to sell you on buying it as a "dealer" so
you can show it in your area. That's great, but you have to pony up the cash
(they won't give you the whole commis off), and you may wind up with the
wrong or out of date model (specs & designs are changing so fast) and have
to dump it at a loss. The other issue is the dealer support and warranty
support, sometimes sole sourced thru one A&P facility who "made a deal with
the importer". Many of the delivery dates are 3 to 4 months out and the
importers are not set up for parts support. The LSA arena is still like the
Wild West, but I'm sure there's futunes to be made.

On the up side, I was very impressed with the Remos G3 LSA. The nearest comp
is the CT-SW, and the Remos G3 seems far more refined and stable in flight.
It did not display the CTs jittery or skittish handling at hi power/hi
speed, maybe the longer tailboom helps here (i didn't measure, but the CT
seems to have a short coupled tail section). The Remos G3 also did not need
as much rudder action at turn initiation, but it did use a good amount of
right rudder on climbout. We had tailwind on takeoff and landing, only about
5-7 kt, but the G3 was up at the first turnoff. I'm finding that these LSAs
are mostly overpowered with their 100hp rotaxs, and when the 80hp rotax gets
night approval it'll be plenty for most (lower octane fuel too). I basically
overcontrolled the G3 until I found out that 1 inch throw was more than
required for most maneuvers. After leveloff we did some slowflight and it
just floated along, with plenty of rudder to pick up either wing, and
straight ahead stall that was a little too benign. I mean that we got almost
no buffet, we were I'm guessing 15 deg nose high way below the white arc,
and at the break point it nosed over to about 15 deg nose down and I'm
flying again. Nothing really required on my part but to neutralize the
stick. I didn't get to try power on or accelerated stalls, I think they
would have revealed more. Thirty deg turns in either direction wanted just a
hint of rudder, and trimmed out I was able to release the stick without any
tendency to either level out or roll over further. I always thought planes
were suppose to roll back to level, this one just held its bank. I like
steep turns, but always add a bit of power and then still typically find
myself sliding off the wing with a need to shallow the bank at least once or
twice. Not with the Remos G3, it rolled in crisply and stopped the roll
promptly when I centered the stick (no over center required). She was rock
steady at 45 deg all the way around with mild stick back and no added power.
The light stick forces are a bit to get used to, especially if you're a
Beech guy fighting the springs all the time.

The most surprising of the demo was our return, were we decided we wanted to
get in before the other G3 demo guy. We were at 2700, and needing to be at
1200, the demo pilot suggested a power on decent. As we were descending the
ASI was climbing thru the yellow, and the demo pilot stops me from reaching
for the throttle. I trim and ask if he's flown it this fast before, to which
I got "oh yeah, no problem". Next I feel him nudge the stick a little
further forward and we're about 5 or 10kt shy of Vne, "trim it there" he
says. I trim it and the Remos is rock steady. I've never flown any plane in
the upper half of the yellow before without significant vibration or mild
shake. The Remos G3 gave no such complaint or warning, no excessive wind, no
engine at redline, if I wasn't looking at the ASI I would not have been able
to tell our speed. I am reserving judgement if this is a good or bad
quality, but I'm leaning to good.

The last surprise was the recovery from the hi speed decent, I pull back the
power and am expecting a major nose down moment, but I didn't get it. The
plane just started slowing down like I had a drag chute out. I kept the
decent angle going for a bit more while bleeding off AS and begin a level
off, and the next time I look at the ASI I'm at the top of the white, in a
wide right base for runway 02. The remainder of the flight was unremarkable.
I came in a bit hot, full flaps, speed bled off quickly, and even with the
tailwind I was off at the second turn.

My observation is that this Remos G3 is the best handling LSA I've flow to
date. I highly recommend a demo flight, and please do not be in a rush to
buy the CT-SW, until you've flown the Remos G3. There is that much of a
difference.

Final observation: The LSAs all seem to have one thing in common which is
biting a lot of the Hi-perf PPLs stepping down, they lose energy very
rapidly. I had not noticed this on any of my landing demos because I was
expecting it. This Remos demo and its recovery from a power on dive made
this point bigtime. And it clearly explains why many longtime problem free
pilot/owners are pronging so many LSAs on landing. I'm not a CFI, but I
think landing practice should be the focus for any of these birds and
birdmen.

Mike Isaksen wrote:
Gentlemen, I decided to re-post this on the owning group under its own
Subject line:

On the up side, I was very impressed with the Remos G3 LSA. The nearest comp
is the CT-SW, and the Remos G3 seems far more refined and stable in flight.
It did not display the CTs jittery or skittish handling at hi power/hi
speed, maybe the longer tailboom helps here (i didn't measure, but the CT
seems to have a short coupled tail section). The Remos G3 also did not need
as much rudder action at turn initiation, but it did use a good amount of
right rudder on climbout. We had tailwind on takeoff and landing, only about
5-7 kt, but the G3 was up at the first turnoff. I'm finding that these LSAs
are mostly overpowered with their 100hp rotaxs, and when the 80hp rotax gets
night approval it'll be plenty for most (lower octane fuel too). I basically
overcontrolled the G3 until I found out that 1 inch throw was more than
required for most maneuvers. After leveloff we did some slowflight and it
just floated along, with plenty of rudder to pick up either wing, and
straight ahead stall that was a little too benign. I mean that we got almost
no buffet, we were I'm guessing 15 deg nose high way below the white arc,
and at the break point it nosed over to about 15 deg nose down and I'm
flying again. Nothing really required on my part but to neutralize the
stick. I didn't get to try power on or accelerated stalls, I think they
would have revealed more. Thirty deg turns in either direction wanted just a
hint of rudder, and trimmed out I was able to release the stick without any
tendency to either level out or roll over further. I always thought planes
were suppose to roll back to level, this one just held its bank. I like
steep turns, but always add a bit of power and then still typically find
myself sliding off the wing with a need to shallow the bank at least once or
twice. Not with the Remos G3, it rolled in crisply and stopped the roll
promptly when I centered the stick (no over center required). She was rock
steady at 45 deg all the way around with mild stick back and no added power.
The light stick forces are a bit to get used to, especially if you're a
Beech guy fighting the springs all the time.

A little pricey, but at least the wing is on top where it is supposed
to be. Now if it just had a real aircraft engine!

I wonder how Cessna will sell the Skycatcher given its ridiculous useful
load capability. The biggest problem with an airplane like the G3 is
the availability of service and support. With Cessna that is pretty
much a given, but it is a risk with an airplane like this.

Matt

("Matt Whiting" wrote)
A little pricey, but at least the wing is on top where it is supposed to
be. Now if it just had a real aircraft engine!


The wing is where? g

http://www.remos.com/en/remos-g3.php?item=foldingwings
Folding wing - the Remos G3 has a lot going for it.


Montblack

("Mike Isaksen" wrote)
On the up side, I was very impressed with the Remos G3 LSA. The nearest
comp is the CT-SW, and the Remos G3 seems far more refined and stable in
flight.


625 LBS (Empty Weight) impressed the heck out of me, at OSH this year

http://www.remos.com/en/remos-g3.php?item=tech-data
Remos G3 specs


Montblack

Montblack wrote:
("Matt Whiting" wrote)
A little pricey, but at least the wing is on top where it is supposed to
be. Now if it just had a real aircraft engine!


The wing is where? g

On the top, on the side, anything but on the bottom!


http://www.remos.com/en/remos-g3.php?item=foldingwings
Folding wing - the Remos G3 has a lot going for it.

Yes, it is an interesting looking airplane to be sure. I wonder how the
inside room compares to the 162. I still have the concern about the
support network and the Rotax engine.

Matt

Montblack wrote:
("Mike Isaksen" wrote)
On the up side, I was very impressed with the Remos G3 LSA. The nearest
comp is the CT-SW, and the Remos G3 seems far more refined and stable in
flight.


625 LBS (Empty Weight) impressed the heck out of me, at OSH this year

http://www.remos.com/en/remos-g3.php?item=tech-data
Remos G3 specs

I wonder just how well equipped an airplane that weight applies to and
will a typical airplane really weigh when it rolls out the door.

Matt

"Montblack" wrote:

http://www.remos.com/en/remos-g3.php?item=foldingwings
Folding wing - the Remos G3 has a lot going for it.

I like the seaplane type doors and having the strut back out of the way, no
strut would be even cleaner:
http://www.tecnamaircraft.com/P2004_Bravo.htm

Course having 2 engines is nice too:
http://www.tecnamaircraft.com/Tecnam_P2006T.htm

Darrel Toepfer wrote:
"Montblack" wrote:

http://www.remos.com/en/remos-g3.php?item=foldingwings
Folding wing - the Remos G3 has a lot going for it.

I like the seaplane type doors and having the strut back out of the way, no
strut would be even cleaner:
http://www.tecnamaircraft.com/P2004_Bravo.htm

Course having 2 engines is nice too:
http://www.tecnamaircraft.com/Tecnam_P2006T.htm

That is a nice looking twin. I hate to see the price tag though...

Maybe it is just an illusion, but the 162 just looks sleeker to my eye.
Both the Remos and the Tecnam look like somebody punched them in the nose.

Matt

Matt Whiting wrote:

That is a nice looking twin. I hate to see the price tag though...

If I remember right, I think it was 3x130k in USD...

47.2" cabin width, using that 0-200 compatible diesel (its actually
lighter) from England... That would be a sweet machine...

Maybe it is just an illusion, but the 162 just looks sleeker to my
eye.
Both the Remos and the Tecnam look like somebody punched them in the
nose.

Alittle heavier than the others, but a winner in the "look"s catagory:
http://www.airplane.cz/parrot.htm (46" cabin width)
http://www.airplane.cz/files_plane3/...s/airplane.jpg

And then theres the Mermaid for ultimate versatility:
http://www.airplane.cz/mermaid.htm
http://www.airplane.cz/files_plane2/...er_parking.jpg