ATC Handling of Low-Fuel American Flight

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
...

Not unless you ignore all the other traffic.


What do you base that on? What is your ATC experience?

Jim Macklin wrote:
Only after the other traffic was out of the way. IF [the
unknown none of us know] the plane was a 5 minute out
straight in to 17 and it would take 11 minutes to clear all
the other airplanes out of the way, a hold would be
required.


They don't have to have a sterile environment like they do for Air Force
One. As you say, no aircraft can be within 30 miles of the airport when
Air Force One is approaching or departing.

This is entirely different.

When I was flying the line I had only one genuine emergency and it was
on a clear day at ORD. We had just been shipped over to approach from
center. We told approach we needed 14R. They already knew the nature
of our emergency, having been briefed by the center. Once they were
directly aware of our need for 14R they gave us a new frequency.

Turns out we were the only flight on that frequency. We were about 25
miles out and pointed directly to 14R. We never heard about how they
cleared the way for us (we were too busy to care) but it was like we
owned the airport.

As we got fairly close in we could see aircraft using 14L, but 14R was
our's.

DFW has a better layout than ORD and the proper handling of a genuine
emergency could have been handled as well as, or better, than the
handling at ORD I described.

My emergency was before the PATCO strike, for whatever that may be worth.

Another situation on my airline. A friend of mine had two engines
failed enroute in a 727. This is a very rare event, but it is a trained
maneuver. Once the grear is down and final landing flaps (flaps 5 in
this case) are selected there is no going around. The emergency started
about 80 miles out from LAX inbound. Everything was goind good until
they were handed off to the tower and they heard the tower still using
the runway they were assigned. The captain told them, loud and clear,
that the aircraft was incapable of going around and if they didn't stop
using the runway right now, they were landing along side of whatever
traffic they might be foolish enough to have on the runway.

That got it cleared up.

The AAL guy absolutely should have done about the same thing.

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
...

Then tell me. In case you don't know... 8,000 plus hours,
FAR 135, several type ratings, grass strips and big
airports, sometimes on the same day. Have declared
emergency on several occasions. Have visited ATC
facilities.


Did anybody declare an emergency and request an opposite direction arrival
during any of your visits?



Have flown into, usually single-pilot, ATL, DFW, ORD, and
other similar. I know that once you have a steady stream of
arrivals, they can't be suddenly stopped. FAR priority does
not alter the laws of space, time or physics.


But you've said, several times now I think, that the POTUS gets that
treatment. How is it that the laws of space, time, and physics can be
altered for him but for an emergency?

Oh, by the way, the operational priority hierarchy in FAAO 7110.65 puts
presidential aircraft fourth, after aircraft in distress, LIFEGUARD flights,
and SAR.

Jim Macklin wrote:

Not unless you ignore all the other traffic.

That is the point; the traffic for his requested runway should be moved
out of the way, taking whatever action is necessary to do that.

Let's say the traffic was exactly as it was that day and someone landing
on runway 17 blows a tire. Are they going to continue landing the
already-establish line of traffic for that runway on top of the disabled
aircraft?

Jim Macklin wrote:

Then tell me. In case you don't know... 8,000 plus hours,
FAR 135, several type ratings, grass strips and big
airports, sometimes on the same day. Have declared
emergency on several occasions. Have visited ATC
facilities.
Have flown into, usually single-pilot, ATL, DFW, ORD, and
other similar. I know that once you have a steady stream of
arrivals, they can't be suddenly stopped. FAR priority does
not alter the laws of space, time or physics.




Okay, I have 19,000 hours, major Part 121, ALPA safety rep, and you just
do not get it.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...

Since he did not get the runway he *should have demanded* why did it not
turn out "wishy-washy?"



The declaration was not wishy-washy.


Agreed. But, he needed to continue to be agressive given the
circumstances, and he did not.

From a pilot's seat for many years, at such little airports
as DFW, ATL, DEN,STL, ORD, etc.

Many hours in the cab and TRACON as a visitor, watching
airports "turn around."

Being given ATC priority during my emergencies and seeing
other pilots get priority handling.


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
message
nk.net...
|
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| ...
|
| Not unless you ignore all the other traffic.
|
|
| What do you base that on? What is your ATC experience?
|
|

And if the time required to move that traffic is longer than
the time required for the aircraft in distress to fly
downwind and land, which is the "best" solution?


It is not a question of what the FAR allows, but which was
the quicker solution? If ATC asked a 707 to fly 100 knots
for spacing behind a CE172 with an emergency, does that
change the laws of flight?
None of us has seen the radar tapes, we don't know the exact
location of number of aircraft the would have had to be
moved or where they would be moved to, but there would have
been dozens at DFW. If each aircraft needed 30 seconds to
get a clearance and two or three minutes to actually clear
the area, and the AA plane was only 5 minutes north, the AA
plane would have had to hold, S-turn or do something to
delay himself before the runway was clear.

The word to keep in mind is PRACTICABLE. The PIC may
deviate from any clearance in an emergency, but everybody
else still has to follow the rules.



"Sam Spade" wrote in message
news | Jim Macklin wrote:
|
| Not unless you ignore all the other traffic.
|
| That is the point; the traffic for his requested runway
should be moved
| out of the way, taking whatever action is necessary to do
that.
|
| Let's say the traffic was exactly as it was that day and
someone landing
| on runway 17 blows a tire. Are they going to continue
landing the
| already-establish line of traffic for that runway on top
of the disabled
| aircraft?

Which is why POTUS always has a TFR, he's number 4 but is
the only traffic in his area, which makes him number one.

No emergency turn arounds, but I did see that it takes some
time. Just how long it would take would depend on the
location and number of aircraft. The FAA could run this in
their simulator at OKC academy or probably at DFW, but for
now, I am ...
happy it all worked out;
enjoying the discussion;
waiting for a DFW controller to join in.



"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
message
ink.net...
|
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| ...
|
| Then tell me. In case you don't know... 8,000 plus
hours,
| FAR 135, several type ratings, grass strips and big
| airports, sometimes on the same day. Have declared
| emergency on several occasions. Have visited ATC
| facilities.
|
|
| Did anybody declare an emergency and request an opposite
direction arrival
| during any of your visits?
|
|
|
| Have flown into, usually single-pilot, ATL, DFW, ORD,
and
| other similar. I know that once you have a steady
stream of
| arrivals, they can't be suddenly stopped. FAR priority
does
| not alter the laws of space, time or physics.
|
|
| But you've said, several times now I think, that the POTUS
gets that
| treatment. How is it that the laws of space, time, and
physics can be
| altered for him but for an emergency?
|
| Oh, by the way, the operational priority hierarchy in FAAO
7110.65 puts
| presidential aircraft fourth, after aircraft in distress,
LIFEGUARD flights,
| and SAR.
|
|

If you were the pilot with the low fuel and had declared an
emergency, would you want a downwind straight in or an
expedited downwind and base/final if both took the same
time? What if the straight in takes 30 seconds longer while
traffic clear your flight path?

Have all pilots turned blonde?



"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
|
| Then tell me. In case you don't know... 8,000 plus
hours,
| FAR 135, several type ratings, grass strips and big
| airports, sometimes on the same day. Have declared
| emergency on several occasions. Have visited ATC
| facilities.
| Have flown into, usually single-pilot, ATL, DFW, ORD,
and
| other similar. I know that once you have a steady
stream of
| arrivals, they can't be suddenly stopped. FAR priority
does
| not alter the laws of space, time or physics.
|
|
|
|
| Okay, I have 19,000 hours, major Part 121, ALPA safety
rep, and you just
| do not get it.