Us and Them

On Sun, 01 Apr 2007 15:50:07 -0400, Bob Noel
wrote in
:

In article ,
Larry Dighera wrote:

Clinton established the fact that ATC was an inherently governmental
function, thus blocking privatization efforts and their requisite user
fees.

when?


It would seem, that it was about December 7, 2000:


http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...11de00-135.pdf

Federal Register
Vol. 65, No. 238
Monday, December 11, 2000
Title 3—
The President
Executive Order 13180 of December 7, 2000
Air Traffic Performance-Based Organization
By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and
the laws of the United States of America, and in order to further
improve the provision of air traffic services, an inherently
governmental function, in ways that increase efficiency, take
better advantage of new technologies, accelerate modernization
efforts, and respond more effectively to the needs of the
traveling public, while enhancing the safety, security, and
efficiency of the Nation’s air transportation system, it is hereby
ordered as follows: [...]


iirc, it was the Clinton administration that was pushing user fees circa 1996

Be that as it may, they weren't pushing for ATC Privatization.

In article ,
Larry Dighera wrote:

Clinton established the fact that ATC was an inherently governmental
function, thus blocking privatization efforts and their requisite user
fees.

when?


It would seem, that it was about December 7, 2000:
[snip]

The PBO stuff does nothing to block user fees.

--
Bob Noel
(gave up looking for a particular sig the lawyer will hate)

On 1 Apr 2007 18:52:42 -0700, "cjcampbell"
wrote in
.com:

Now you're claiming that the Democrats are the
flag carriers for the lower taxes movement.

What gave you that idea? I'm pointing out that Bush embraces federal
government privatization, and Clinton didn't. Nothing more.

Sometimes I have difficulty comprehending your inferences, CJ. You
seem to jump to erroneous conclusions rather easily. Why is that?

User fees are a dumb idea (because they're an administrative and
fiscal nightmare), but that's what it's going to take to enable ATC
privatization.

Don't get me wrong, it's only equitable for the ATC system users,
pilots and commercial passengers, to fund the ATC system, as they do
now. But wresting our nation's navigable airspace from governmental
control, dismantling the best ATC system on the face of the planet,
and handing it over to a heartless, faceless, corporate entity that
has demonstrated its ruthless history of criminality in obtaining
government contracts in the recent past, is just too arrogant for
words. It's a worse proposition than handing over control of our
nation's sea ports to an Arab corporation!

It is the airlines who are fueling the burgeoning growth of air
operations, not GA. It is the airlines who should shoulder the lion's
share of the NextGen future ATC system; GA should not have the burden
of funding something that is demanded by the airlines; that would be
unjust.

But the airlines don't have the enormous capital resources necessary
to plan, construct, implement, man, test and deploy NextGen ATC, so
they need to remove Congressional oversight of FAA funding in order to
obtain the "blank-check" required to pay for the years of development
required.

Government privatization is just another corporate attempt to
boondoggle our government out of its peoples' tax dollars, at the
expense of public accountability. Corporations don't participate in
Freedom of Information Act transparency. ...


Irrational beliefs ultimately lead to irrational acts.
-- Larry Dighera,

On Sun, 01 Apr 2007 22:57:25 -0400, Bob Noel
wrote in
:


The PBO stuff does nothing to block user fees.

That seems true.

It's only equitable that ATC be funded by its users: pilots, the
traveling public, and the airlines who demand its improvement in order
to enable their continued growth. The current system of collecting
those funds is simple, cheap, and most importantly, currently
in-place. A pay-for-each-ATC-service-used ATC funding system will
require dismantling the current functional funding system, creation
and implementation of the new system, and the cost of keeping track of
each operation, and billing the correct user, will generate so much
paper and mail, that the cost of collecting the fees may well approach
the value of the fees themselves. It's a dumb idea.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

What gave you that idea? I'm pointing out that Bush embraces federal
government privatization, and Clinton didn't. Nothing more.


Privatization of VFR towers occurred during the Clinton administration.

On Mon, 02 Apr 2007 10:32:42 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in
et:


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .

What gave you that idea? I'm pointing out that Bush embraces federal
government privatization, and Clinton didn't. Nothing more.


Privatization of VFR towers occurred during the Clinton administration.


Wasn't the FAA practice of operating "contract towers" a long standing
policy that spanned many administrations and is continuing to occur
during the present administration?

Incidentally, have you got a link to information about FDR's
establishing ATC as being an inherently governmental function as you
asserted earlier in this thread?

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

Wasn't the FAA practice of operating "contract towers" a long standing
policy that spanned many administrations and is continuing to occur
during the present administration?

Incidentally, have you got a link to information about FDR's
establishing ATC as being an inherently governmental function as you
asserted earlier in this thread?


I said it happened during FDR's administration, I didn't say that FDR had
any direct involvement in it.

This is the only online source that I'm aware of:

http://www.faa.gov/about/media/b-chron.pdf

Late 1935 through 1936 would be the period in question. A better source is
"Bonfires to Beacons: Federal Civil Aviation Policy Under the Air Commerce
Act 1926-1938" by Nick A. Komons.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

Wasn't the FAA practice of operating "contract towers" a long standing
policy that spanned many administrations and is continuing to occur
during the present administration?


I don't think so. I believe the first FAA contract towers were established
in the early '80s, but there were only 20 or 30 by 1994 or so. I think
something like 200 FAA towers were contracted out during the Clinton
administration.

("Steven P. McNicoll" wrote)
Incidentally, have you got a link to information about FDR's establishing
ATC as being an inherently governmental function as you asserted earlier
in this thread?

I said it happened during FDR's administration, I didn't say that FDR had
any direct involvement in it.


You split a hair that wasn't there ...or was it?

Did the decision come down from the courts?
Did the decision emanate from congress?
Was the executive branch behind the 'new' policy?
(...if yes, it gets an FDR stamp on it)

http://www.faa.gov/about/media/b-chron.pdf

(Not ATC specifically, but interesting regulation info from the link)

Aug 1, 1928: As a first step toward promoting uniform state aeronautical
legislation consistent with Federal law, the Aeronautics Branch issued
Aeronautics Bulletin No. 18 reviewing the characteristics of various state
statutes and setting forth suggested drafts of required laws. At this time,
20 states had no aeronautical legislation. (See Dec 16, 1930.)

Dec 16, 1930: The Aeronautics Branch opened the National Conference on
Uniform Aeronautic Regulatory Laws. Representatives from 45 states,
Washington, D.C., Puerto Rico, and the Philippine Islands attended the
two-day meeting to discuss uniformity of air regulations. (See Aug 1, 1928,
and Mar 23, 1933.)

Mar 23, 1933: Enactment of legislation by the State of Georgia meant that
all of the 48 States had laws dealing with aeronautics (see Aug 1, 1928, and
Mar 1946). Georgia’s new law included a requirement that all airmen and
aircraft operating within the state have Federal licenses. This provision
was included in most, but not all, of the other state aeronautical laws (see
Dec 1, 1941).


Montblack
An Eisenhower baby ....Feb, 1960

Oct 1, 1926: Northwest Airways began service as a contract mail carrier. The
company began passenger service the following year, and expanded its routes
in the late twenties and early thirties, changing its name to Northwest
Airlines on Apr 16, 1934. Further expansion included routes to Asia,
beginning in the 1940s, and for a time the carrier used the name Northwest
Orient Airlines.

Jul 2, 1932: Franklin D. Roosevelt became the first U.S. presidential
candidate to fly when he chartered a Ford Trimotor from Albany to Chicago to
address the Democratic National Convention. (See Jan 14, 1943.)

"Montblack" wrote in message
...

You split a hair that wasn't there ...or was it?


If I split it, it's there.



Did the decision come down from the courts?
Did the decision emanate from congress?
Was the executive branch behind the 'new' policy?
(...if yes, it gets an FDR stamp on it)


Do the research and report back.