A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

A Tale of Two Takeoffs



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old June 19th 17, 07:25 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Steve Koerner
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 430
Default A Tale of Two Takeoffs

Looks like Evan and I were typing at the same time and have had the same experience.
  #42  
Old June 19th 17, 07:52 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 962
Default A Tale of Two Takeoffs

On Monday, June 19, 2017 at 2:25:49 PM UTC-4, Steve Koerner wrote:
Looks like Evan and I were typing at the same time and have had the same experience.


Yep. Loss of roll control in my case too.

-Evan


  #43  
Old June 19th 17, 08:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 580
Default A Tale of Two Takeoffs

It's not like I haven't been there, guys. The ballasted occasions are almost all at contests and the tow pilots have generally responded to my agonized pleas for more speed.

The scariest one was actually dry, though, at a local club. It's the closest I've come to losing roll control or having to pull the release. And, yes, I was in near-low-tow position.

I was just wondering if settling even lower might help get me out of the downwash, at least when using a longish rope. I've towed at Hank's Middletown operation, which uses low tow exclusively, and if you're not used to it, it looks very strange (although it works very well). I don't think I've been down that low in my slow-tow adventures.

Chip Bearden
"JB"
  #44  
Old June 19th 17, 11:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Don Johnstone[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 398
Default A Tale of Two Takeoffs

At 19:02 19 June 2017, wrote:
It's not like I haven't been there, guys. The ballasted occasions

are
almos=
t all at contests and the tow pilots have generally responded to my
agonize=
d pleas for more speed.

The scariest one was actually dry, though, at a local club. It's the
closes=
t I've come to losing roll control or having to pull the release. And,
yes,=
I was in near-low-tow position.=20

I was just wondering if settling even lower might help get me out

of the
do=
wnwash, at least when using a longish rope. I've towed at Hank's
Middletown=
operation, which uses low tow exclusively, and if you're not used

to it,
i=
t looks very strange (although it works very well). I don't think

I've
been=
down that low in my slow-tow adventures.

Chip Bearden
"JB"


I have been there, in my case I was in a K21 2 up behind a Rotax
Falke. (Motor glider with big engine). I was definitely in low tow and
had no way of getting out of it. The problem as I see it is that if
you sink low enough you could make it extremely difficult for the
tug to lower the nose to give you more speed, in which case he will
probably give you the rope, not a situation I would care to be in.
The radio call in my case was heeded.
Someone once told be that in Australia they all use low tow as the
norm, even releasing in low tow which I admit I never have. I have
always used low tow on cross country tows as it is a lot more
stable. I have always transitioned to high tow for release.

  #45  
Old June 20th 17, 12:44 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ben Coleman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 49
Default A Tale of Two Takeoffs

On Tuesday, 20 June 2017 08:30:05 UTC+10, Don Johnstone wrote:


I have been there, in my case I was in a K21 2 up behind a Rotax
Falke. (Motor glider with big engine). I was definitely in low tow and
had no way of getting out of it. The problem as I see it is that if
you sink low enough you could make it extremely difficult for the
tug to lower the nose to give you more speed, in which case he will
probably give you the rope, not a situation I would care to be in.
The radio call in my case was heeded.
Someone once told be that in Australia they all use low tow as the
norm, even releasing in low tow which I admit I never have. I have
always used low tow on cross country tows as it is a lot more
stable. I have always transitioned to high tow for release.



Confirmed, low tow is the norm here - just below the prop wash. The only time I have been in high tow is boxing the slipstream. One of our old hands used to transition to high tow for release (it was speculated that it was to get a few free feet of altitude) but it wasn't appreciated by the tuggies.

I have had one "memorable" towing speed incident. In my first ballasted comp. flying a Jantar Standard, the tow plane climbed out while I was still on the ground. I yanked the glider into the air and it took a few moments to get my wits about me to call for more speed. It was not something I had expected or prepared for and I should have released. It still gets my nerves jangling when I recall it.

I am doubly careful to make sure the tow pilot knows I am ballasted now, thanks goodness I have not had such an experience since (although I have had to ask for a few more knots now and then).

Cheers Ben
  #46  
Old June 20th 17, 02:17 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,383
Default A Tale of Two Takeoffs

From our testing, you "almost" can't get too low on the towplane, most still have elevator authority (for lowering the nose) when you are really low unlike getting too high and you dive him in.
  #47  
Old June 20th 17, 06:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Don Johnstone[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 398
Default A Tale of Two Takeoffs

At 01:17 20 June 2017, Charlie M. UH & 002 owner/pilot wrote:
From our testing, you "almost" can't get too low on the towplane,

most
still have elevator authority (for lowering the nose) when you are

really
low unlike getting too high and you dive him in.

Perhaps we can all learn from the boys in Oz. From the last two posts
tug upsets should be almost unknown in Australia.
Is there a case for making low tow the standard towing position in the
rest of the world?
Just from the lessening of the chance of a tug upset it seems that low
tow is the safest option.

  #48  
Old June 20th 17, 11:25 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 478
Default A Tale of Two Takeoffs

Or moving off center to one side Towpilots can skip leg day. Wonder if there is an ingestion, rather than simple interference, of the towplane wake at the glider wingtips similar to helicopter settling with power?
On Tuesday, June 20, 2017 at 2:00:06 AM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 01:17 20 June 2017, Charlie M. UH & 002 owner/pilot wrote:
From our testing, you "almost" can't get too low on the towplane,

most
still have elevator authority (for lowering the nose) when you are

really
low unlike getting too high and you dive him in.

Perhaps we can all learn from the boys in Oz. From the last two posts
tug upsets should be almost unknown in Australia.
Is there a case for making low tow the standard towing position in the
rest of the world?
Just from the lessening of the chance of a tug upset it seems that low
tow is the safest option.


  #49  
Old June 21st 17, 03:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ron Gleason
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 483
Default A Tale of Two Takeoffs

Sorry for the delay but am hiking in Germany with limited time and Internet access. My comment about whining pertained to RAS Posts not about speaking up at contests. I cannot speak for others but the contests I have assisted with in thee ground we review everything you mention and we strive no wing drops and appropriate tow speeds.

Of the 700 or so tows at Nephi last year during the Nats I recall 9 wing drops, I do not have m,y notes in front of me. I saw them all, including the one that started this thread. No one common denominator in these incidents. Can we them all? I hope so but human nature is a tough nut to crack

For tow speeds we review with the chief tow pilot, all pilots at the beginning and when we hear for speed calls. Again no excuses but many factors attribute to this situation. Some calls for speed are erroneous when items released such as waffle balls are used to protect rope end and the glider ASI tube is in the nose with the tow hook! I have heard pilots calling for more speed when the tow plane was already doing 75+. We remind pilots about this situation but it still happens every contest I have been involved with.

Getting all pieces together for a contest is a delicate dance with many partners. I do not know any folks organizing contests that does not put safety first. So yes speak up if necessary and better yet lets you and every other contest pilot on t he ground assisting and contributing to the solution at once a year.

One other note concerning tow speeds, it is going to get harder going forward. The latest high wing loading racing gliders are requiring 85 knots at a minimum, according to the manufacturer. Many tow planes while able to dro the speed do not climb as well at those speeds. Sol faster tows may. Mean lower tows which could mean higher tow fees.

Ron Gleason
  #50  
Old June 22nd 17, 04:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 394
Default A Tale of Two Takeoffs

I may have missed it, but I didn't see any comment on holding wheel brake as the tow plane takes out slack. If the slack is taken out too rapidly it will jerk the glider, leaving a slack rope. Most contest tows will proceed immediately after slack is out, but if the tow pilot holds for any reason, the slack line will jerk the glider and this may result in some of the problems discussed. My wheel brake is on the spoilers and I don't like unlocking them, but I have reluctantly adopted the "hold the wheel brake" procedure to prevent starting with a slack line.
Hope this helps,
JJ
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
14 takeoffs = 14 approaches - Video [email protected] Piloting 0 February 4th 10 02:16 AM
Any early turn takeoffs still around? Michael Instrument Flight Rules 12 June 6th 04 06:24 PM
Ground steering and Takeoffs webmaster Simulators 3 February 15th 04 09:34 PM
F-15 takeoffs Mary Shafer Military Aviation 2 July 1st 03 07:41 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.