"normal" procedure for pop-up filing

I've done more than my share of popping up over the years (ATC seems easier
to get along with west of the Mississippi) and I can't remember ever being
vectored in Class E airspace. Not that my memory is perfect, but it seems to
me that if it was a regular occurence I would remember it.

Bob Gardner

wrote in message
...
: Why don't more people use flight following?

The biggest reason I've heard (and feel often enough) is that you're
likely to
get "vectored" even if clear of controlled airspace. I've got a friend
with a turbo
Arrow that flies along VFR without flight following right over the top of
Class C and
Class B at 10500 or 11500. If you were to call up approach while doing,
that, seems
like 9 times out of 10 they'll vector you 10-20 miles out of the way.
Similarly if
you're skirting under an airspace... likely to get vectored further out.

It's unfortunate, since it discourages people who enjoy the freedom of VFR
from getting additional safety of traffic advisories and being "in the
system."

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

Agreed. Getting thru/around/over Class B is one reason that VFR makes
more sense than VFR when VMC but I want radar advisories when I'm doing
that. I normally ask "Maule 44Foxtrot requests radar advisories"
rather than "Flight Following". Don't know if that makes any difference
but If I decide to overfly or underfly a Class B, I'm not asking for
routing, I'm asking for traffic advisories. And while I'll welcome zigs
and zags, I'm probably going to follow my strategy and not accept route
or altitude deviations 'suggested' by ATC. The only hard stop is
"remain clear".

In practice, I'm typically IFR in VMC and not happy with my options.
When I cancel, it's pretty clear that I'm pursuing a different route and
rarely are others suggested.

Dave Butler wrote:
Roy Smith wrote:
The biggest reason I've heard (and feel often enough) is that
you're likely to get "vectored" even if clear of controlled airspace.
I've got a friend with a turbo Arrow that flies along VFR without
flight following right over the top of Class C and Class B at 10500
or 11500. If you were to call up approach while doing, that, seems
like 9 times out of 10 they'll vector you 10-20 miles out of the way.
Similarly if you're skirting under an airspace... likely to get
vectored further out.

There's two sides to this.
One is that if you're VFR in Class E airspace, they really don't have
any authority to vector you (I'm sure somebody will come up with some
exception). Sometimes controllers do try to do so anyway, but if you
really don't want to comply, you can just say "cancel flight
following, request frequency change" and go on your fat, dumb, and
happy way.

The other is that if you're doing something like skirting the top of a
Class B by 500 feet and the controller suggests a heading or route to
you, it might just be in both of your best interests to go along with
it. You scratch his back and he'll scratch yours. There's a lot of
heavy metal climbing out the top of a Class B. I don't want to be the
hood ornament on a 747, nor do I want to discover what the wake
turbulence of one feels like.


Yes. I've gone over the top of Chicago twice on the way to OSH. You know
you can't get an IFR routing anywhere near there, so I crossed the CBAS
at 10500 VFR. I was happy to have advisories as the aluminum
concentration was high. The controller seemed to be glad I was talking
and squawking, too. He did give me a couple of zigzags, but that's
better than going way out over Lake Michigan or 50 miles to the west.

"Cleared present position direct...." has been my experience with popping
up. Of course, I was at an altitude where radar could see me. In my
experience, being on an airway offers no special advantage.

Bob Gardner

"Brenor Brophy" wrote in message
...
Lots of good answers, especially regarding how easy it is to get a pop-up
if you already have flight following. I'll just add one more item - fly a
route you could fly IFR with the equipment you've got. For example, while
my handheld GPS can take me direct anywhere VFR - I'm screwed if I need an
IFR pop-up and I'm not on an airway in my VOR only equiped plane (/U). So
I pretty much always follow airways - just on the off chance I need to
"convert" my flight following to an IFR clearance.

-Brenor

Maule Driver wrote:
I normally ask "Maule 44Foxtrot requests radar advisories"
rather than "Flight Following".

There is absolutely no difference between the two. They are just two
different names for exactly the same service.

"OtisWinslow" wrote in message
...

A VFR flight plan is a FSS thing so they can find the bodies if
you don't show up. Doesn't go to ATC.


Correct, but if you file an IFR fight plan through DUATS with "VFR" as the
requested altitude it WILL go to ATC.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...


Correct, but if you file an IFR fight plan through DUATS with "VFR" as the
requested altitude it WILL go to ATC.

Here's what he said and what I reply to:

"pre-file your VFR flight plan with DUATS
so ATC already has a strip on you at initial call-up, just like with IFR."

If you file an IFR flight plan with a VFR altitude they'll assume you
want FF. I've done that by mistake and when I called for a clearance
they made a comment about FF.

"OtisWinslow" wrote in message
m...

Here's what he said and what I reply to:

"pre-file your VFR flight plan with DUATS
so ATC already has a strip on you at initial call-up, just like with IFR."


Yeah, and here's what he said earlier in the thread and what I initially
replied to:

"I've been told you can play tricks with DUAT, filing an IFR flight plan and
putting 'VFR' in the remarks section, but you shouldn't have to resort to
subterfuge like that for what seems like such a simple and logical thing."


We're talking about filing an IFR flight plan through DUATS with "VFR" as
the requested altitude for the purpose of generating strips for flight
following, not about filing a VFR flight plan for search and rescue
purposes.



If you file an IFR flight plan with a VFR altitude they'll assume you
want FF.

Exactly.

"Maule Driver" wrote in message
.. .
....snip...
I normally ask "Maule 44Foxtrot requests radar advisories"
rather than "Flight Following". Don't know if that makes any difference
....snip...

IIRC, "flight following" is an informal way of saying "radar services"
(i.e., the two are synonymous).

ATC is pretty easy to get along with down in the SE US too. Lack of
congestion is the key I'm guessing.

The only Class E vectoring I can remember ever getting was related to
bypassing Class B & C. Specifically attempts to vector you even if high
or low enough to avoid the B/C.

The big 'depend' is individual facilities' practices with regard to
transitions thru their airspace. Charlotte used to routinely send you
around. Now they seemed to have worked out thru transitions.
Greensboro treats their Class C like sacred air and won't even let you
nip the corners when transitioning. Raleigh almost always accomodates
thru transitons. Heck, Washington DC used to be pretty flexible and
accomodating before 9/11 (Maule, give me 10 degrees left to miss Bill's
house). Stuff varies.

Bob Gardner wrote:
I've done more than my share of popping up over the years (ATC seems easier
to get along with west of the Mississippi) and I can't remember ever being
vectored in Class E airspace. Not that my memory is perfect, but it seems to
me that if it was a regular occurence I would remember it.

Bob Gardner

wrote in message
...

: Why don't more people use flight following?

The biggest reason I've heard (and feel often enough) is that you're
likely to
get "vectored" even if clear of controlled airspace. I've got a friend
with a turbo
Arrow that flies along VFR without flight following right over the top of
Class C and
Class B at 10500 or 11500. If you were to call up approach while doing,
that, seems
like 9 times out of 10 they'll vector you 10-20 miles out of the way.
Similarly if
you're skirting under an airspace... likely to get vectored further out.

It's unfortunate, since it discourages people who enjoy the freedom of VFR
from getting additional safety of traffic advisories and being "in the
system."

-Cory

--

************************************************ *************************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************ *************************

"Dave Butler" wrote in message
news:1117123248.79333@sj-nntpcache-5...

Yes. I've gone over the top of Chicago twice on the way to OSH. You know
you can't get an IFR routing anywhere near there, so I crossed the CBAS at
10500 VFR. I was happy to have advisories as the aluminum concentration
was high. The controller seemed to be glad I was talking and squawking,
too. He did give me a couple of zigzags, but that's better than going way
out over Lake Michigan or 50 miles to the west.

Another question then: I am planning to fly from PVD Providence RI to
Madison MSN on 24/25th July. The backend on the route was to be MKG
(Muskegon), BAE (Badger) and MSN. Is it likely then that I will not get
cleared IFR through to MSN and if wanted to follow that route would be best
to cancel IFR and go VFR weather permitting even getting a pop up clearance
at MSN to descend through cloud?