Some good news

Another point that was made to me today by one of the other pilots at the camp is that i may have been significantly more predisposed to the bailout option because i have jumped before and don't find it all that intimidating. While I do agree that this very well may be true once in IMC, the idea of bailing out never comes across my mind while flying, and i didn't actually even consider the notion that i may need to until i went into full IMC. It became the decision once i was still in IMC and below mountaintop level.

From my perspective, the flight went much like one of those "Choose your adventure" books, where at each step both choices seem rather benign, until you are 4-5 steps in and you wish you could go back to the first chapter. In my case, my intent was never to go IMC, it was actually to avoid it altogether and take what appeared to me at the time to be the most conservative option of descend immediately. continuing to the second gap when the first closed is what i see as my greatest mistake of the flight. With the Oudie moving map going white intermittently, i did not have as good of situational awareness as i should have as to the location of the second hole (way down the valley). Once i arrived at it, all future decisions became means to survive, and in the end worked out as well as they possibly could have (given the insurance comparison to total vs. repair from an out landing).
Chris

At 19:46 24 October 2015, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 16:28 24 October 2015, Dan Marotta wrote:


On a personal note, I used to unbuckle my parachute before getting out
of the glider because it's easier physically. About a year ago I
decided that it would be better to always leave the glider with the
'chute on to avoid unbuckling out of habit before an emergency exit.
Since then, I've been refining my method for getting out and it's much
easier now. I realize that g-loading can have quite an impact on exit,
either positive or negative.

I have always climbed out of the glider complete with parachute for th
reasons described above.
With the advancing years I have, on occasion, unbuckled the parachute t
make getting out easier. I found that to do this is very difficult. The
le
clips are difficult to reach to unclip so perhaps the danger of unclippin
in the event of an abandonment is less that it would appear.
It would be interesting to know whether in the case under discussio

I believe that the "don't unbuckle the 'chute and leave it in the aircraft
when you get out" advice, is based on one incident with a Spitfire in WWII
in which the pilot was believed to have done just that when abandoning the
aircraft. It seems a very small sample on which to base considerable
inconvenience for tens of thousands of pilots over a period of 75 years.

whether the parachute was unclipped in the cockpit or the pilot go in wit
his chute not secure, I suspect the latter is the more likely.

At 07:30 25 October 2015, Chris Rollings wrote:

I believe that the "don't unbuckle the 'chute and leave it in the
aircraft
when you get out" advice, is based on one incident with a Spitfire in WWI
in which the pilot was believed to have done just that when abandoning th
aircraft. It seems a very small sample on which to base considerable
inconvenience for tens of thousands of pilots over a period of 75 years.

whether the parachute was unclipped in the cockpit or the pilot go in
with
his chute not secure, I suspect the latter is the more likely.


I also think this advice dates back to the days when parachutes had a "turn
and press" quick release dropped all the straps. A modern chute normally
needs you to undo 3 buckles, none of which are similar to the cockpit
straps, so the risk is less.

However I still leave the chute on and struggle out of the cockpit! I also
snug up the leg straps once seated in the cockpit (before the seat straps),
which does check they are done up on getting in.

At 09:28 25 October 2015, Julian Rees wrote:
At 07:30 25 October 2015, Chris Rollings wrote:

I believe that the "don't unbuckle the 'chute and leave it in th
aircraft
when you get out" advice, is based on one incident with a Spitfire in
WWI
in which the pilot was believed to have done just that when abandoning
th
aircraft. It seems a very small sample on which to base considerable
inconvenience for tens of thousands of pilots over a period of 75 years.

whether the parachute was unclipped in the cockpit or the pilot go i
with
his chute not secure, I suspect the latter is the more likely.


I also think this advice dates back to the days when parachutes had a
"tur
and press" quick release dropped all the straps. A modern chute normall
needs you to undo 3 buckles, none of which are similar to the cockpi
straps, so the risk is less.

However I still leave the chute on and struggle out of the cockpit! I
als
snug up the leg straps once seated in the cockpit (before the seat
straps)
which does check they are done up on getting in.

I am old enough to remember the "turn and bang" single parachute release. I
remember being told that the original idea of having to turn and then
depress the turned lock was deliberate to make the sequence different from
the straightforward turn of the seat harness. Modern parachutes with 3
separate clips are completely different to the seat harness, however I can
well see that muscle memory might take over in a stressful situation if my
habit was to unbuckle the parachute before getting out every time.
With the EB80 that I currently wear it is very difficult, because I fit
very snugly into the cockpit, to unclip the leg straps while seated in the
cockpit. The two levers need to be pulled outwards to release the clips and
there is no room to do this in most gliders that I fly. Some contortion is
needed to successfully release the leg straps, something I feel I am very
unlikely to do if faced with abandonment. Because I have always climbed out
of the glider, still wearing the parachute, I have to make a concious
effort not to do so. My default if you like is to leave wearing the
parachute and I am happy with this.
I do remember on one occasion getting into the glider leaving the leg
straps undone, luckily sitting on the unsecured straps was extremely
uncomfortable so I discovered my error before flight.

Thanks, Chris.

That's exactly the kind of information I was looking for! I'll wait
patiently for the full story when you're ready to release it.

One question: You mentioned crouching in the cockpit immediately prior
to jumping. I don't know how the seating is in an HP, but in my LAK,
I'm sitting too low to get into a crouch. I've found that, by putting
my upper arms (just above the elbows) on the canopy rails, bringing one
foot way back, and bracing my back against the seat back, I can raise my
body enough that I can get the other leg over the canopy rail. Then I
can use that leg to assist in rolling over the side. Note: I'm 67
years old.

Dan

On 10/24/2015 4:56 PM, Christopher Giacomo wrote:
On Saturday, October 24, 2015 at 12:28:50 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
And I'm disappointed that there's been no narrative of everything
recalled from the decision to leave the aircraft until feet were
safely on the ground. Any time someone experiencing such an
emergency can pass on all the thoughts, fears, worries,procedures,
successes and failures to the rest of us, it can only improve the
prospects of success for the rest of us.


On Saturday, October 24, 2015 at 12:28:50 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
And I'm disappointed that there's been no narrative of everything
recalled from the decision to leave the aircraft until feet were
safely on the ground. Any time someone experiencing such an
emergency can pass on all the thoughts, fears, worries,procedures,
successes and failures to the rest of us, it can only improve the
prospects of success for the rest of us.



On a personal note, I used to unbuckle my parachute before getting
out of the glider because it's easier physically. About a year ago
I decided that it would be better to always leave the glider with
the 'chute on to avoid unbuckling out of habit before an emergency
exit. Since then, I've been refining my method for getting out and
it's much easier now. I realize that g-loading can have quite an
impact on exit, either positive or negative.




On 10/23/2015 11:04 PM, Ramy wrote:



I second that. It is much more helpful to be able to discuss an accident/incident with those directly involved vs having to speculate, although I maintain that the latter is still better than not discussing at all.

Ramy





--

Dan, 5J
Sorry to disappoint Dan...
I have done a 5(ish) page writeup on the whole event, but do not quite feel comfortable posting it to RAS or in Soaring magazine at the moment, as we haven't fully grasped the weather and all that went into the various events that occurred, and i haven't solidified my personal conclusions on my decisions yet. If i left the parachute ride out of it, my apologies, it was not my intent.

On the parachute question, I make it a point to not unbuckle my harness until standing outside the glider, as the muscle memory issue pointed about above was made to me several years back while at Caesar Creek.

As far as the actual bailout process. while in the spiral, i opened the canopy, crouched in my seat, placed my hand on the D-ring, jumped, arched my back, and pulled the ring (about a 3-second sequence in all from when i was crouched. As mentioned and debated previously, once the opening shock hit me, i had difficulty pulling on the left risers, but was able to reach and pull down on the right rear riser of the parachute to steer myself closer to Rt-16 on the descent. Being unable to turn left made this more of a sequencing thing, where i would turn faster when facing into the wind, then relax the pressure when going in the correct direction. As i got down to ~100ft over the trees, i prepared for impact by releasing the risers and covering my face with my forearms, putting my legs together, and bending my knees. The "impact" never came, so from then on out i was just faced with the dilemma of safely hanging 30 feet over the ground and trying not to cause an injury in getting myself down.

Chris

--
Dan, 5J

....And getting out without the parachute is so much easier than lifting
the extra weight. That was part of my decision to keep the parachute on
when exiting at the end of the flight - it's harder. That requires more
strength so I worked (and am still working) on that.

On 10/25/2015 4:55 AM, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 09:28 25 October 2015, Julian Rees wrote:
At 07:30 25 October 2015, Chris Rollings wrote:

I believe that the "don't unbuckle the 'chute and leave it in th
aircraft
when you get out" advice, is based on one incident with a Spitfire in
WWI
in which the pilot was believed to have done just that when abandoning
th
aircraft. It seems a very small sample on which to base considerable
inconvenience for tens of thousands of pilots over a period of 75 years.

whether the parachute was unclipped in the cockpit or the pilot go i
with
his chute not secure, I suspect the latter is the more likely.
I also think this advice dates back to the days when parachutes had a
"tur
and press" quick release dropped all the straps. A modern chute normall
needs you to undo 3 buckles, none of which are similar to the cockpi
straps, so the risk is less.

However I still leave the chute on and struggle out of the cockpit! I
als
snug up the leg straps once seated in the cockpit (before the seat
straps)
which does check they are done up on getting in.

I am old enough to remember the "turn and bang" single parachute release. I
remember being told that the original idea of having to turn and then
depress the turned lock was deliberate to make the sequence different from
the straightforward turn of the seat harness. Modern parachutes with 3
separate clips are completely different to the seat harness, however I can
well see that muscle memory might take over in a stressful situation if my
habit was to unbuckle the parachute before getting out every time.
With the EB80 that I currently wear it is very difficult, because I fit
very snugly into the cockpit, to unclip the leg straps while seated in the
cockpit. The two levers need to be pulled outwards to release the clips and
there is no room to do this in most gliders that I fly. Some contortion is
needed to successfully release the leg straps, something I feel I am very
unlikely to do if faced with abandonment. Because I have always climbed out
of the glider, still wearing the parachute, I have to make a concious
effort not to do so. My default if you like is to leave wearing the
parachute and I am happy with this.
I do remember on one occasion getting into the glider leaving the leg
straps undone, luckily sitting on the unsecured straps was extremely
uncomfortable so I discovered my error before flight.


--
Dan, 5J

The instructions that came with my chute, a Butler, says not to snug the leg straps after sitting in the cockpit, leave them snug when standing. Any comments or experienced parachuter that can comment on this?

Perhaps any male that has jumped with loose leg straps will not want to repeat the pain. You don't need to tighten them like the glider harness, though.
Jim

On Sunday, October 25, 2015 at 8:06:09 AM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
The instructions that came with my chute, a Butler, says not to snug the leg straps after sitting in the cockpit, leave them snug when standing. Any comments or experienced parachuter that can comment on this?

On Sunday, October 25, 2015 at 11:06:09 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
The instructions that came with my chute, a Butler, says not to snug the leg straps after sitting in the cockpit, leave them snug when standing. Any comments or experienced parachuter that can comment on this?

That is correct. Properly snug legstraps will be loose in the sitting position. Folks can try it, snug up legstraps sit in a chair resnug them then get up and try moving around.

Originally Posted by JS

Perhaps any male that has jumped with loose leg straps will not want to repeat the pain. You don't need to tighten them like the glider harness, though.
Jim

On Sunday, October 25, 2015 at 8:06:09 AM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
The instructions that came with my chute, a Butler, says not to snug the leg straps after sitting in the cockpit, leave them snug when standing. Any comments or experienced parachuter that can comment on this?

I can't comment on the pain involved with loose leg straps but a pilot in my club who baled out of a Discus CS in the last year was struck under the chin with the chest strap leaving quite a large contusion from ear to ear. The chest strap ended up on his forehead leaving one to ponder what may have been if he was knocked out or rendered insensible by the chest strap upon the chute opening

Colin