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#21
November 22nd 03, 09:53 AM
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Mr Irvine, Mr. Kauppinen,
I have also read the book(s) "Fighter" and it is a great reference, too, but I also have re-printed Me-109E-3 flight manual in Serbo-Croatian(!) language and I have read RAE evaluation on Internet. Firstly, the figther's name for export was Me-109. The manual is the re-print of the original manual for Yugoslav Kingdom (1918-1941) called "Me-109 manual". I do not have it handy, but I remembered few things; Max speed: 570 kph Max allowed dive speed: 750 kph Dive procedu 1) Turn the trim whell up so the plane is "tail-heavy", take off the throttle, propeller pitch 12 (I -might- be mistaken for the last one-sorry, it comes from the memory); 2) Depress stick "down"; 3) If aircraft is diving on it is own, abort dive emmidiatelly 4) max allowed dive speed is 750 kph. Taking the plane out from the dive: 1) DO NOT (bold letters!) pull on the stick! 2) since the aircraft is wheel-trimmed "tail-heavy" (i.e. up), leave the aircraft to bring itself from the dive (black-on white manual statement!) So, there was some worry... but for the tail, not wings! From the RAE evaluation of the captured Bf-109; quote Safety in the Dive During a dive at 400 mph all three controls were in turn displaced slightly and released. No vibration, flutter or snaking developed. If the elevator is trimmed for level flight at full throttle, a large push is needed to hold in the dive, and there is a temptation to trim in. If, in fact, the airplane is trimmed into the dive, recovery is difficult unless the trimmer is moved back owing to the excessive heaviness of the elevator. .... Elevator This is an exceptionally good control at low air speeds, being fairly heavy and not over-sensitive. Above 250 mph, however, it becomes too heavy, so that maneuvrability is seriously restricted. When diving at 400 mph a pilot, pulling very hard, cannot put on enough 'g' to black himself out; stick force -'g' probably exsceeds 20 lb/g in the dive. end quote It is strange that RAE experts didn't have 109's flight manual and made such errors in handling, especialy they have sold Hurricane I fighters to Yugoslavia after Yugoslavia has obtained Me-109s! Book "fighter" also describes the Bf-109 that it has the tighter circle. It is not true, but it has the best instantenuos turn rate-Huricane is the second, and Spitfire on the third place. But, due to the high wing loading (no matter that the slats are installed), Bf-109 bleeds speed very quickly in turns. Since Mr. Irvine and I are reffering to the same source and same plane version, it should be noted that these information are valid for the Bf/Me-109E-3 ONLY. -- Nele NULLA ROSA SINE SPINA Mark Irvine wrote in message ... "Jukka O. Kauppinen" wrote in message ... decides the fight! Alas for the luftwaffe the Bf109 wings were not designed for guns etc so were not terrifically robust, the pilots were often more worried about the wings falling off than blacking out...... Incorrect. Having guns or not doesn't have anything to do with the strenght of the wings. 109s from A-E had wing weapons, again one of the K models was designed for wing weapons. The wings were also one single structure, which made it possible to make them very strong. "- Are the stories true, that the 109 had weak wings and would loose them easily? He has never heard of a 109 loosing its wings from his experience or others. The wings could withstand 12 g's and since most pilots could only handle at most 9 g's there was never a problem. He was never worried about loosing a wing in any form of combat." - Franz Stigler, German fighter ace. 28 victories. Interview of Franz Stigler. snip The reference that I was using was Len Deightons book "Fighter" which examines the Battle of Britain. When discussing tactics he asserts that the Bf109 pilots used the tactic of diving away as the Bf109 engine maintained power during the dive unlike that generation of Merlin. However the 109 pilots tended to pull out of their dives in a shallower curve, due to fears over the wings. The spitfire pilots would continue the dive longer and then pull out harder, so overhauling them and pushing home their attack. This is of course a generalisation, and it is not a claim that the Bf109 was a bad aircraft. I do wonder how much of this stemmed from the narrow undercarraige, which while it allowed wing removal while the aircraft sat on its own wheels, also forced a narrow undercarraige. Presumably if the thing toppled over the main area of damage would be the wings. Something like 5% of Bf109s made were reportedly lost in landing accidents. One would assume that a contributing factor was the narrow undercarraige. Something that was certainly looked at in the Fw190, which had one of the widest fighter undercarraiges of the war! In summary the Bf109 could probably take a lot of stress and it is not as though they were falling out of the sky due to wings falling off. However in all likelyhood the pilots did have a concern. It could be one of those cases where perception is everything.... Mark 
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#22
November 22nd 03, 10:57 AM
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#23
November 22nd 03, 11:25 AM
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In article ,
Greg Hennessy nntp wrote: On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 17:30:19 GMT, (The Revolution Will Not Be Televised) wrote: On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 13:53:55 +0000, Greg Hennessy wrote: A reengined victor would be superior to the vulcan in all aspects of what you propose IMHO. Carrying 50% more bombload, higher and faster. Yeah, but let's face it, all the old V-force are shagged, and in any case wouldn't have the same pork-barrel job-creation dynamic as a new aircraft. Quite. The unnecessary selection and production of 3 aircraft was an act of political stupidity. Nonsense about it being 'insurance' should have been sorted at the trial stage. Four aircraft. There was the Short Sperrin as well, albeit prototypes only. In a sense you can see why they went for multiple designs - Victor and Vulcan were very daring designs for their day, Valiant (and Sperrin) would work, but might not be good enough, long enough. However actually going into production with three of the designs.. hmm. If they'd done the four designs as prototypes and then built one of them once they were sure it would work - well, perhaps there'd have been monet over for the Avro 730 (or even the EE P10..) Yes, airbus will suggest using the wings and engines of the A-400M on a new slender fuselage and call it the A-95M Ursa, The maritime variant, A-142M would be an ideal nimrod replacement.  Yes, with a modern high bypass turbofan, it would lead to some interesting levels of wing root thickness. Still think it's amazing that the original Comet wing managed to go from housing the Ghost to the Avon to the Spey.. -- Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/ "Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)
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#25
November 22nd 03, 01:49 PM
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On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 10:57:47 +0000, Greg Hennessy
wrote: I dunno, at least the Valiant came in on time and almost to budget. which is impressive Not just impressive, a bleeding miracle considering the money which was wasted on projects like the brabazon. Too true. if we ignore the fatigue situation for a minute. Was re-sparring them ever seriously looked at ? IIRC it was considered, but the cost was prohibitive. I think the jigs had gone west by then, and Vulcan B.2 was the next stage on everybody's minds. They really should have made a choice between the Vulcan and the Victor, though, and probably in favour of the latter. I'd agree with that. I reckon if they had done so, the victor would still be in service today. I dunno, the cost/role issue would raise it's head as it did historically. John Nott would have settled their hash. What we really need is a new type with 30-40 years of operational life at a shatteringly low pound sterling per bomb cost, rather than trying to reanimate an old V Force zombie which guzzles fuel using late '50's engine technology. Think of all the french aerospace workers we can featherbed. No, this is not a collaborative effort. Ahh we wouldn't be good europeans then mate :-). Nobody else is pushing a similar requirement, although I'm sure the French will jump on the bandwagon to "collaborate" (**** it up) if they thought it might actually have a danger of appearing. We can call it RAF A.L. to annoy them. They can work for certain flagship programs at the political level, but one financial quagmire at a time until the Eurofighter procurement and the A-whatever (ex-FLA) contract is complete. This is a UK-led supplier effort. /me shudders at the thoughts of Nimrod AEW. Yeah, but that was the internal squiggly bits fit. This project is an existing-tech come as you are party. No new mission-critical systems to be built from scratch and which can fail the airframe and the whole project. Dig those old Short Sperrin airframes out of storage now! LOL! Thinking about it, a lifting body design like boeing was proposing for future air lifters could take nice thrifty turbofans with humongous amounts of internal volume for fuel, electronics and things to drop on the heads of the other side. This is what we want. Sod the radar signature, if the opposition have any credible ability to a) detect it tooling in for the bomb run at 46,000 feet or b) intercept a nice, fat target like it, it won't be going anywhere until the defences are suppressed. Afterwards they orbit Talibanistan with their humungous internal fuel capacity at 0.9 Mach all day long dropping PGMs on every mud hut until they run out of stores and go home. I want a 10,000 mile range on internal fuel with a minimum of 50,000 lbs internal bombload, lowest quote wins. Gavin Bailey -- "Will Boogie Down For Food".- Sign held by Disco Stu outside the unemployment office.
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#26
November 22nd 03, 02:32 PM
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In article ,
Greg Hennessy writes: On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 08:17:29 GMT, (The Revolution Will Not Be Televised) wrote: I dunno, at least the Valiant came in on time and almost to budget. which is impressive Jumping in at this point, because it concentrates a number of replys. Not just impressive, a bleeding miracle considering the money which was wasted on projects like the brabazon. if we ignore the fatigue situation for a minute. Was re-sparring them ever seriously looked at ? Yes, it was. But eamination of the spars already built for that purose, and laid up in storage, showed that they were suffering from the early stages of fatigue as well - brought on by jouncing them around as they wer transorted. Damned brittle, if you ask me! Since at that time the Mk I Vulcans and Victors were available, it was viewed to be more cost effective to use teh Vulcans for the NATO Nuke role, and the Victors as tankers. They really should have made a choice between the Vulcan and the Victor, though, and probably in favour of the latter. I'd agree with that. I reckon if they had done so, the victor would still be in service today. Think of all the french aerospace workers we can featherbed. No, this is not a collaborative effort. Ahh we wouldn't be good europeans then mate :-). They can work for certain flagship programs at the political level, but one financial quagmire at a time until the Eurofighter procurement and the A-whatever (ex-FLA) contract is complete. This is a UK-led supplier effort. /me shudders at the thoughts of Nimrod AEW. USAnian smirk of superiority taken as read, thereby filling the Gratuitous Nationalistic Insult requirement for Tranatlantic Posting. - I doubt they'd go for embedded engines again. Yes, with a modern high bypass turbofan, it would lead to some interesting levels of wing root thickness. The embedded engines actually held up turbofan development in the U.K. The Conway's rediculously low bypass ratio (0.3 for the Victor's flavor, 0.6 for the commercial ones used on the 707-400s) was a direct result of having to fit it into a Victor's wing. This didn't give much in the way of an efficiency increase. The JT3D/TF-33 for the 707-300B series and B-52s, had a 1.5 bypass ratio, and were much better economically. Dig those old Short Sperrin airframes out of storage now! LOL! Thinking about it, a lifting body design like boeing was proposing for future air lifters could take nice thrifty turbofans with humongous amounts of internal volume for fuel, electronics and things to drop on the heads of the other side. No, what you need is long loiter time, reasonable altitude capability, and low observability on European Weather Conditions (Fog & Clouds, with a chance of no rain). Might I suggest, then a Deltoid-shaped Zeppelin, (Such as the Areon), powered by (Wait for it) Steam Turbines. This would fill all of Great Britains classic requirements: A huge internal volume, low sonic observability, a ;ong loiter time, the use of steam, and the excuse to make a lot of stuff out of Brass. -- Pete Stickney A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many bad measures. -- Daniel Webster
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#27
November 22nd 03, 05:26 PM
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#28
November 22nd 03, 05:26 PM
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#29
November 22nd 03, 07:14 PM
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The reference that I was using was Len Deightons book "Fighter" which
examines the Battle of Britain. When discussing tactics he asserts that the Bf109 pilots used the tactic of diving away as the Bf109 engine maintained power during the dive unlike that generation of Merlin. However the 109 While being just armchair enthusiast, I wonder how much of this "wing failure" myth is based on hollow claims - or facts. I don't know for fact, but were 109 pilots themselves really worried of wing failure in dives? I don't remember reading any such accounts. It could be the greener pilots were worried, but were those who were more familiar with the plane? And how mcuh changes there was between various subtypes? In BoB 109 E-4 to E-7 were standard types. Was there some real problem with them? I haven't at least heard of such. Early 109 Fs had weak tail structure and several planes were lost, when tail ripped off. Later Fs, Gs and Ks had no such problem. Several Finnish 109 G pilots had dived regularly 750-900 km speeds in vertical dives when disengaging and they haven't been worried about the plane. I do wonder how much of this stemmed from the narrow undercarraige, which while it allowed wing removal while the aircraft sat on its own wheels, also forced a narrow undercarraige. Presumably if the thing toppled over the main area of damage would be the wings. Something like 5% of Bf109s made were reportedly lost in landing accidents. One would assume that a contributing factor was the narrow undercarraige. Actually, The width of undercarriage in Me 109 E is 1,97 meters; 109 G 2,06 meters and 109 K 2,1 meters. However - Spitifre's undercarriage width was 1,68 meters. Nothing unusual with the undercarriage there. The real problem was the center of gravity behind the undercarriage. This made it possible to brake unusually hard in landings, but it also required the pilot to keep the plane straight in takeoff and landing. If this failed the plane could get into quickly worsening turn until the other undercarriage failed or the plane drifted off the runway. jok I'm putting together an article about various aspects of the 109 with pilot commentary. Here's some quotes about 109s diving: - The Me 109 was dived to Mach 0.79 in instrumented tests. Slightly modified, it was even dived to Mach 0.80, and the problems experimented there weren't due to compressility, but due to aileron overbalancing. Compare this to Supermarine Spitfire, which achieved dive speeds well above those of any other WW2 fighter, getting to Mach 0.89 on one occasion. P-51 and Fw 190 achieved about Mach 0.80. The P-47 had the lowest permissible Mach number of these aircraft. Test pilot Eric Brown observed it became uncontrollable at Mach 0.73, and "analysis showed that a dive to M=0.74 would almost certainly be a 'graveyard dive'." - Source: Radinger/Otto/Schick: "Messerschmitt Me 109", volumes 1 and 2, Eric Brown: "Testing for Combat". - 109 didn't "compress" but the elevators became heavy. When adjusting trim the entire horizontal tail plane moved and reduced the force needed to pull out. Me 109 G: "The maximum speed not to be exceeded was 750kmh. Once I was flying above Helsinki as I received a report of Russkies in the South. There was a big Cumulus cloud on my way there but I decided to fly right through. I centered the controls and then something extraordinary happened. I must have involuntarily entered into half-roll and dive. The planes had individual handling characteristics; even though I held the turning indicator in the middle, the plane kept going faster and faster, I pulled the stick, yet the plane went into an ever steeper dive. In the same time she started rotating, and I came out of the cloud with less than one kilometer of altitude. I started pulling the stick, nothing happened, I checked the speed, it was about 850kmh. I tried to recover the plane but the stick was as if locked and nothing happened. I broke into a sweat of agony: now I am going into the sea and cannot help it. I pulled with both hands, groaning and by and by she started recovering, she recovered more, I pulled and pulled, but the surface of the sea approached, I thought I was going to crash. I kept pulling until I saw that I had survived. The distance between me and the sea may have been five meters. I pulled up and found myself on the coast of Estonia. If I in that situation had used the vertical trim the wings would have been broken off. A minimal trim movement has a strong effect on wings when the speed limit has been exceded. I had 100kmh overspeed! It was out of all limits. The Messerschmitt's wings were fastened with two bolts. When I saw the construction I had thought that they are strong enough but in this case I was thinking, when are they going to break - What about the phenomenon called "buffeting" or vibration, was there any? No, I did not encounter it even in the 850kmh speed." - Kyösti Karhila, Finnish fighter ace. 32 victories. Source: Interview by Finnish Virtual Pilots Association. Me 109 G: "- The vertical dive was how to disengage. Jussi Huotari: That was the remedy. Antti Tani: That is how I survived when attacking two of them and losing the first round. They had more speed because I was coming from a lower altitude. It was nothing special, the (Yak-9) planes were climbing and began to turn back. I had planned to get to shoot at them as they have lost their speed in the turn. But I was not in the right position. I turned at them and pulled the nose up - and I lost my speed, I had to turn below them. I had to push the stick to get behind them, and as they dived at me I dived right down. I turned with ailerons a couple of times, and had full power on. Then I started recovery from the dive, of course in the direction of home, then checked the dials, the reading was eight hundred plus kmh. Then I started pulling the stick, pulled harder as hard as ever: never in my life did I pull so hard. I pulled with right hand and tried to trim the horizontal rudder with my left hand. But it did not budge, as if it had been set in concrete. But by the by the nose began to rise, but terribly slowly. As my angle was about 45 I heard over the radio as Onni Paronen said, "hey lads, look, a Messerschmitt is going in the sea!" I wanted to answer back but I could not afford to do anything put pull with two hands. As soon as I had returned to level flight and had been able to breath normally for a while, I in a way regained consciousness. I pushed the transmitter key and said "not quite". It was a close shave. - It was so hard that you almost blacked out? Antti Tani: I felt I was on the edge, pulling as hard as I ever could." - Antti Tani, Finnish fighter ace. 21,5 victories. Source: Interview by Finnish Virtual Pilots Association. - Jouko "Jussi" Huotari, Finnish fighter ace. 17 victories. Source: Interview by Finnish Virtual Pilots Association. Me 109 G-6: After landing Me 109 with damaged rudder trim tab, which shook the rudder heavily in flight: "Antti Tani: It had to be strong, both the rudder and the pedals, they withstood the damn shaking without any further damage. Jussi Huotari: The Messerschmitt was a very tough aircraft. You could do vertical dives and the tailplane hang along..." Antti Tani: But Mäittälä, what happened to him, he lost the tailplane? Mäittälä dived like that, and being a strong man he was able to pull harder than I did. And so the tailplane was ripped off - The day before a similar dive and recovery had happened to the same plane. Two steep dives in succession and a strong pilot pulling the stick each time, so... Antti Tani: It certainly was a risky job. It must be that I remember him because I did a dive like that and remembered his tailplane had been ripped off. I, too pulled as hard as I could, because I thought that I am going to die if I don't." - Antti Tani, Finnish fighter ace. 21,5 victories. Source: Interview by Finnish Virtual Pilots Association. - Jouko "Jussi" Huotari, Finnish fighter ace. 17 victories. Source: Interview by Finnish Virtual Pilots Association. Me 109 G-6: "The story of Valte Estama's 109 G-6 getting shot down by a Yak-6 was also an interesting one. Their flight of nine planes was doing high-altitude CAP at 7,000 meters (23,000'). (snip) So it happened that the devil fired at him. One cannon round hit his engine, spilling out oil that caught fire. Estama noticed that it wasn't fuel that leaked or burned, just oil. He pushed the nose of the plane and throttled up. His feet felt hot, but the fire was extinguished and there was no more smoke. The speedometer went over the top as the speed exceeded 950 km/h. The wings began to shake and Estama feared the fighter would come apart. He pulled the throttle back, but the stick was stiff and couldn't pull the plane out of the dive. Letting the flaps out little by little gradually lifted the nose. The plane leveled at 1,000 meters (3,300'). Clarification of the escape dive: "It didn't stay (vertical) otherwise, it had to be kept with the stabilizer. I trimmed it so the plane was certainly nose down. Once I felt it didn't burn anymore and there was no black smoke in the mirror, then I began to straighten it up, and it wouldn't obey. The stick was so stiff it was useless. So a nudge at a time, (then straightening off with trims). Then the wings came alive with the flutter effect, I was afraid it's coming apart and shut the throttle. Only then I began to level out. To a thousand meters. It was a long time - and the hard pull blacked me out." - Edvald Estama, Finnish fighter pilot. Source: Recollections by Eino and Edvald Estama by Finnish Virtual Pilots Association. Me 109 G: "-Many claim that the MT becomes stiff as hell in a dive, difficult to bring up in high speed, the controls lock up? Nnnooo, they don't lock up. It was usually because you exceeded diving speed limits. Guys didn't remember you shouldn't let it go over. We had also Lauri Mäittälä, he took (unclear tape), he had to evade and exceeded the speed, and the rudders broke off. He fell in a well in the Isthmus. He was later collected from there, he's now there in Askola cemetery. The controls don't lock up, they become stiffer of course but don't lock. And of course you couldn't straighten up (shows a 'straightening' from a dive directly up) like an arrow." - Väinö Pokela, Finnish fighter ace and Me 109 trainer. 5 victories. Source: Interview of Väinö Pokela by Finnish Virtual Pilots Association. Me 109 G: "- How fast could you go with it? How fast did you dare to fly in a dive, what was the limit? It was ... 720 (kilometers/hour), if I remember right. You weren't supposed to exceed it but we did it many times. And as the air was thin up there, so we often had to go vertical when escorting a photographing plane." - Väinö Pokela, Finnish fighter ace and Me 109 trainer. 5 victories. Source: Interview of Väinö Pokela by Finnish Virtual Pilots Association. "- Are the stories true, that the 109 had weak wings and would loose them easily? He has never heard of a 109 loosing its wings from his experience or others. The wings could withstand 12 g's and since most pilots could only handle at most 9 g's there was never a problem. He was never worried about loosing a wing in any form of combat." - Franz Stigler, German fighter ace. 28 victories. Interview of Franz Stigler. Me 109 F/G: "- What's the fastest you ever had a 109 in a dive? I've taken it to about 680 to 750 km/hr at which point you needed 2 hands to pulls it out of the dive." - Franz Stigler, German fighter ace. 28 victories. Interview of Franz Stigler. "During a dive at 400 mph all three controls were in turn displaced slightly and released. No vibration, flutter or snaking developed. If the elevator is trimmed for level flight at full throttle, a large push is needed to hold in the dive, and there is a temptation to trim in. If, in fact, the airplane is trimmed into the dive, recovery is difficult unless the trimmer is would back owing to the excessive heaviness of the elevator." - RAF Royal Aircraft Establishment (RAE) Farnborough handling trials,Bf.109E Wn: 1304. M.B. Morgan and R. Smelt of the RAE, 1944. "My flight chased 12 109s south of Vienna. They climbed and we followed, unable to close on them. At 38,000 feet I fired a long burst at one of them from at least a 1000 yards, and saw some strikes. It rolled over and dived and I followed but soon reached compressibility with severe buffeting of the tail and loss of elevator control. I slowed my plane and regained control, but the 109 got away. On two other occasions ME 109s got away from me because the P 51d could not stay with them in a high-speed dive. At 525-550 mph the plane would start to porpoise uncontrollably and had to be slowed to regain control. The P 51 was redlined at 505 mph, meaning that this speed should not be exceeded. But when chasing 109s or 190s in a dive from 25-26,000 it often was exceeded, if you wanted to keep up with those enemy planes. The P 51b, and c, could stay with those planes in a dive. The P 51d had a thicker wing and a bubble canopy which changed the airflow and brought on compressibility at lower speeds." - Robert C.Curtis, American P-51 pilot.
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#30
November 22nd 03, 09:01 PM
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Back in 1961, there was a fierce battle between the RAF and RN for the
deterrent system for the 70s. At that time we were buying Skybolt for the Vulcans, and it was reckoned they'd be time expired by 1970. The Navy's proposal was for Polaris. The RAF proposal was to fit up to 6 Skybolts on VC10s and maintain some form of standing patrol. The British Nuclear Study Group's [BNDSG, affectionately known to the Navy as the 'Benders'] Technical SubCommittee under Solly Zuckerman preferred Polaris. The Treasury preferred the Skybolt option. All of which became null & void with the cancellation of Skybolt. Nicholas Hill Four aircraft. There was the Short Sperrin as well, albeit prototypes only. In a sense you can see why they went for multiple designs - Victor and Vulcan were very daring designs for their day, Valiant (and Sperrin) would work, but might not be good enough, long enough. However actually going into production with three of the designs.. hmm. If they'd done the four designs as prototypes and then built one of them once they were sure it would work - well, perhaps there'd have been monet over for the Avro 730 (or even the EE P10..) Yes, airbus will suggest using the wings and engines of the A-400M on a new slender fuselage and call it the A-95M Ursa, The maritime variant, A-142M would be an ideal nimrod replacement. Yes, with a modern high bypass turbofan, it would lead to some interesting levels of wing root thickness. Still think it's amazing that the original Comet wing managed to go from housing the Ghost to the Avon to the Spey..
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