Here's where I want to fly, now what do I need?

The following are questions about the reality in going from no flying
experience to being qualified to fly my family away on weekends.
Please indicate if this is the wrong newsgroup for these questions.

The weekend drive from my home in Grosse Pointe, MI to Lake Ann, MI is
230 statute miles, about 4.5 to 5 hours each way.

Detroit to Traverse City (30 minutes from Lake Ann) is 180 nautical
miles. There are municipal airports near Grosse Pointe although I have
not investigated them. There is a grass strip about 5 minutes from
Lake Ann.

I dislike driving this distance for a weekend. I am considering flying
occasionally as an alternative.

1) Is 3K-5K a realistic estimate of the cost of getting VFR rated?
2) Being the Midwest, it is frequently cloudy. Is IFR a realistic
requirement to be able to return home safely on a given weekend?
3) Is another 3K-5K realistic for an IFR rating?
4) What plane would be suitable to hire for this distance, a grass
strip, 2 adults, 2 young children and some luggage?
5) What rate would you expect to pay per hour?
6) If the answer to (2) is yes, what is the rental availability of IRF
aircraft and is there a premium?
6) What would the flight time be?
7) Can you generally leave your car at municipal airports free?
8) If I left on Friday afternoon and returned at dawn on Monday
morning, what additional charges are applied to the rental?

Is this a realistic alternative idea for weekend family trips or a
pipe dream?

In a previous article, (Boris) said:
I dislike driving this distance for a weekend. I am considering flying
occasionally as an alternative.

I drive up to Ottawa, Canada twice a month (also about a 5 hour drive) and
I hate the drive and love the flight.

1) Is 3K-5K a realistic estimate of the cost of getting VFR rated?

That's less than I paid, but here in the lake effect rain/show shadow of
Lake Ontario and in controlled airspace, it probably costs more than it
does there.

2) Being the Midwest, it is frequently cloudy. Is IFR a realistic
requirement to be able to return home safely on a given weekend?

Even with an IFR rating, you have to be ready to scrub several trips,
sometimes at the last minute, if you have the slightest qualms about the
weather - even an IFR rating won't get you through a thunderstorm or icing
conditions.

3) Is another 3K-5K realistic for an IFR rating?

Probably.

4) What plane would be suitable to hire for this distance, a grass
strip, 2 adults, 2 young children and some luggage?

Piper Warrior or Archer, Cessna 172, 182, etc.

5) What rate would you expect to pay per hour?

That is so variable and regional that I can't guess.

6) If the answer to (2) is yes, what is the rental availability of IRF
aircraft and is there a premium?

Again, you'd have to talk to your local FBOs.

6) What would the flight time be?

About 2 hours.

7) Can you generally leave your car at municipal airports free?

Generally, yes.

8) If I left on Friday afternoon and returned at dawn on Monday
morning, what additional charges are applied to the rental?

Talk to your FBO. I belong to a flying club because MANY FBOs don't allow
you to take planes for the weekend, either at all or at least during the
summer. Remember that to them, you're taking a plane away for 4 hours of
flying over 2-3 days when they could reasonably expect to rent it out for
8+ hours of flying. Even in the club, I have to book summer weekends well
in advance, and will book 4 or 5 weekends and end up cancelling at least
two of them.

Is this a realistic alternative idea for weekend family trips or a
pipe dream?

Flying the trip is something you might be able to do once in a while, but
unless you own a plane you won't be able to fly it as often as you like,
even if the weather cooperates.

I'm currently looking at getting into a small partnership on a Cherokee
140, but retaining my flying club membership just to increase my chances
of having something to fly for whole weekend trips.

--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Nazis are part of *every* government, everywhere, in all of human
history. They're just not always called that.
-- J.D. Baldwin

"Boris" wrote in message
om...
The following are questions about the reality in going from no flying
experience to being qualified to fly my family away on weekends.
Please indicate if this is the wrong newsgroup for these questions.

The weekend drive from my home in Grosse Pointe, MI to Lake Ann, MI is
230 statute miles, about 4.5 to 5 hours each way.

Detroit to Traverse City (30 minutes from Lake Ann) is 180 nautical
miles. There are municipal airports near Grosse Pointe although I have
not investigated them. There is a grass strip about 5 minutes from
Lake Ann.

I dislike driving this distance for a weekend. I am considering flying
occasionally as an alternative.

1) Is 3K-5K a realistic estimate of the cost of getting VFR rated?

perhaps a little low, but that is reasonable - a lot depends on you.

2) Being the Midwest, it is frequently cloudy. Is IFR a realistic
requirement to be able to return home safely on a given weekend?

If you plan on making it your mode of transportation - I suggest you plan on
getting the intstrument rating

3) Is another 3K-5K realistic for an IFR rating?

depends on the training - but that sounds ok.

4) What plane would be suitable to hire for this distance, a grass
strip, 2 adults, 2 young children and some luggage?

I have heard rumors of FBOs not allowing landing on grass strips, though I
have little experience with it - I bought a plane.
You should do a little research on the web for this kind of thing - it
depends on what you all weigh, how much baggage you dring, etc.
It could be doable. A cessna 172 (ubiquitous) can fly this type of
mission - but it all depends on the load you are carrying.


5) What rate would you expect to pay per hour?

depends on the plane and the area and if you belong to a club or partnership
or rent from an FBO. Probably $70 to $125 per hour.

6) If the answer to (2) is yes, what is the rental availability of IRF
aircraft and is there a premium?

I doubt there will be a problem renting suitable IFR capable planes.
Generally there is no "premium" specifically for IFR capable planes, but the
rates may be higher just because the acquisition and maintenance costs are
higher. (4 place plane with lots of neat toys in the panel is more
expensive to buy and operate than a 2 seat trainer with minimal equipment -
training abuse notwithstanding)

6) What would the flight time be?

depends on how fast you fly. Fixed gear 4 seat planes will cruise at about
95 to 115kts. (110 to 140 mph) - you do the math. There is the added time
of getting to and from the airports, preflights, briefing, etc. You may not
cut off as much time in door to door travel as you think...

7) Can you generally leave your car at municipal airports free?

I have never had a problem with that. Never paid for car parking.

8) If I left on Friday afternoon and returned at dawn on Monday
morning, what additional charges are applied to the rental?

This is the big issue - many places will charge minimum rates for weekends.
Perhaps 4 hours or so - so for a weekend flight it looks like you would pay
roughly $800 for a rental plus or minus about $300 depending on the rental
rate. That is heck of a lot of cash in my opinion and one of the main
reasons I bought my own. However, I am not advocating that you go out and
buy a plane.

You may also be charged (plane) parking fees - some airports do not and
sometimes the fee is waived if you purchase gas. I have paid anywhere from
0 to $20 per night/day


Is this a realistic alternative idea for weekend family trips or a
pipe dream?

That is up to you - it may not turn out to be what you expected, but it is a
heck of a lot of fun. How does your family feel about it?

I would do it all again given the chance.

On 4/15/04 5:27 PM, Boris wrote:

1) Is 3K-5K a realistic estimate of the cost of getting VFR rated?

Probably closer to $5k, or even higher, depending on things such as
buying headsets for your entire family, etc. It's like owning a boat,
you think you just signed up for the boat payments but then you drive
by the boat store every day, subscribe to boating magazines, join the
national boaters organization, sign up for the Discovery Boating
channel on TV, go to the annual boating show, buy boating guides, buy
marine electronics gizmos, etc., and before you know it you are
totally obsessed. Aviation consumes you. But, like any obsession, it
is fun.

2) Being the Midwest, it is frequently cloudy. Is IFR a realistic
requirement to be able to return home safely on a given weekend?

Certainly an instrument rating would help considerably. The issue
would be the ceilings and visibility for your route of flight. If all
the clouds are up at 18,000 feet, no problem. There are good weather
resources online. You may want to look into planning your route of
flight on something like aeroplanner.com and seeing how often the
weather would pose a "no-go" restriction on your plans. You could
load up the route every few days over the course of several weeks and
see how the weather looks. Of course, seasonal changes in weather
would yield different results. A good resource is
aviationweather.noaa.gov.

3) Is another 3K-5K realistic for an IFR rating?

Sure, type "Instrument Rating" into google and check out the prices
quoted by all the accelerated instrument training outfits. While I
wouldn't necessarily recommend that route for your instrument ticket,
they are not bashful about publishing their prices and you will get a
feel for the general price points.

4) What plane would be suitable to hire for this distance, a grass
strip, 2 adults, 2 young children and some luggage?

Your difficulty will be in getting someone to rent you the plane and
allowing you to do soft field operations (Grass Strip) in it, as the
grass field is, for whatever reason, considered an easier place to
damage the plane. That said, if you ask permission and they know you
don't plan to land on some mud bath of a strip, I suspect you could
get it; depends on the club and on their insurance policies. You
could rent a Cessna 172 or Piper Archer II for $100 / hour and it
would meet your mission requirements. You can put around 700+ pounds
of people and luggage in there with full (~300 lb) fuel tanks, and
even more if you take on less fuel (check the manuals to be sure).
Most rental clubs have tailwheel aircraft better suited to soft field
operations but these are typically aerobatic or tailwheel trainers
such as Citabrias or Decathalons not able to fit the wife, kids and
luggage.

5) What rate would you expect to pay per hour?

In the neighborhood of $90-$100/hour wet. I live in northern
California where everything is rediculously expensive. My
guesstimates are likely on the high side for your area of the country.

6) If the answer to (2) is yes, what is the rental availability of IRF
aircraft and is there a premium?

I suspect you will find that most C-172s or Archers that meet your
useful load requirements in terms of weight will likely be equipped
with the right navigation equipment to be IFR-ready. In many cases
there may be a few dollar per hour premium for airplanes with
IFR-approved GPS, autopilots, etc., i.e. expect to pay perhaps $105
instead of $95 for the same aircraft with all the cool gizmos.

6) What would the flight time be?

Figure your airspeed would be 115 knots, or about 130 MPH. Subtract
for wind correction, maybe on a bad day you'd get a 15 knot headwind,
I don't know your area. Add 30 minutes on the front end for
pre-flight, plus time to drive to the airport, etc. Plus 30 minutes
at the tail end upon landing to secure / clean up aircraft. Plus
drive time from destination airport to destination. I bet you will
save a little time vs. the car, but not enough to be worth it solely
on account of time savings. Oh, but the view! However, no McDonald's
drive through for the kids...

7) Can you generally leave your car at municipal airports free?

Yes, definitely. Many will even loan you their car for free to ferry
yourself into town. Welcome to the friendly world of aviation! Many
will charge a nightly "tie-down" fee if you leave your aircraft there.
Most places waive this fee if you refill your gas tanks. The fee is
very small, often less than $10/night for a single engine plane. Many
airports do not have any "tie-down" fee. Check airnav.com for more
info on your airports of interest.

8) If I left on Friday afternoon and returned at dawn on Monday
morning, what additional charges are applied to the rental?

Many rental clubs impose a minimum rate of, for example, 2 hours of
time per day. So if you want to keep the airplane for the weekend,
they may want you to run the engine (and thus the rental meter) for 4
hours. You should look into local clubs / rental outfits and see what
their policies might be.

Is this a realistic alternative idea for weekend family trips or a
pipe dream?

If you have always wanted to learn to fly, and this is your way to
rationalize it, I say go for it. Most of us that learn to fly fall in
love with it. I know I am "that guy," the one with the gizmos, the
books, the Discovery wings channel, the guy with the aviation scanner
while driving to work, the flying magazines, the whole nine yards.
Could happen to you too. If you don't care about aviation and you
just want to make your journey to the lake house easier, you could
repurpose the $10k you'd spend learning to fly and getting your
instrument rating and all that into hiring a limo driver for $60/hour
to take your family up there and back, and probably come out ahead.

My top suggestion is that you go to http://www.beapilot.com/ and sign
up for a $49 introductory flying lesson in your area. There was a car
company not long ago that ran a commercial that said something to the
effect of "Most people who test drive our car, buy one." I think the
same goes for the intro flight and learning to fly. Good luck,
-angus

"Boris" wrote in message
om...
The following are questions about the reality in going from no flying
experience to being qualified to fly my family away on weekends.
Please indicate if this is the wrong newsgroup for these questions.

The weekend drive from my home in Grosse Pointe, MI to Lake Ann, MI is
230 statute miles, about 4.5 to 5 hours each way.

200 miles is about break-even for fly versus drive times when you consider
the extra time of getting to the airport, pre-flight, etc.


Detroit to Traverse City (30 minutes from Lake Ann) is 180 nautical
miles. There are municipal airports near Grosse Pointe although I have
not investigated them. There is a grass strip about 5 minutes from
Lake Ann.

I dislike driving this distance for a weekend. I am considering flying
occasionally as an alternative.

If you are flying for fun, it sounds like a great trip.


1) Is 3K-5K a realistic estimate of the cost of getting VFR rated?
2) Being the Midwest, it is frequently cloudy. Is IFR a realistic
requirement to be able to return home safely on a given weekend?
3) Is another 3K-5K realistic for an IFR rating?

Both numbers are probably realistic, assuming you learn pretty quickly.


4) What plane would be suitable to hire for this distance, a grass
strip, 2 adults, 2 young children and some luggage?
5) What rate would you expect to pay per hour?
6) If the answer to (2) is yes, what is the rental availability of IRF
aircraft and is there a premium?

Decent IFR plane will run 100 - 125/hr. But, as others have said, there will
be a weekend premiuim. The bottom line is that general aviation is almost
never justifiable by expense. We do it because we love it, the same way
people sail, ski, dive or race cars.


Is this a realistic alternative idea for weekend family trips or a
pipe dream?

How much do you want to spend? Sure it's an alternative - otherwise there
wouldn't be 600K pilots running around the country (although only a small
percent of those fly personal GA regularly). But, you have to decide the
journey is the adventure, or it will never be worth the time, money or
effort.

In article ,
Boris wrote:
Please indicate if this is the wrong newsgroup for these questions.

I can almost remember trying to figure this out for myself about 3 years
ago.

The weekend drive from my home in Grosse Pointe, MI to Lake Ann, MI is
230 statute miles, about 4.5 to 5 hours each way.

Door to door. So make your comparisons with flying that way (if time
is your motivation):

1. travel time to the airport,
2. time to preflight (say about 15 minutes),
3. flight time (about 15 minutes plus the flight distance
divided by the cruise speed),
4. and the time to get from the destination airport to your
ultimate destination.

Last weekend weekend we flew to a destination we've driven several
times before. It's a 5 hour drive, in theory, but it always takes
longer because we stop on the way. Door to door it took almost
exactly 2.5 hours each way by plane. There's an airport only a
couple of miles from our destination (a ~$12 cab ride).

Also, the flight is almost effortless, while the drive takes a lot
more attention. The flight is also a lot more scenic.

There is a grass strip about 5 minutes from Lake Ann.

Beware that many FBOs won't let you operate out of grass strips.
Also, grass strips are generally only available for the summer
months after the snow has melted and the strip has dried out.

1) Is 3K-5K a realistic estimate of the cost of getting VFR rated?

$3k would be very low, $5k is probably reasonable.

2) Being the Midwest, it is frequently cloudy. Is IFR a realistic
requirement to be able to return home safely on a given weekend?
3) Is another 3K-5K realistic for an IFR rating?

As many people will tell you, the instrument rating won't get you in
every time. Especially into a grass strip. Your estimate might
be a bit low, but more importantly you will need 50 hours PIC cross
country before you take the checkride, which is another $5k+ worth
of flying between your private and your IR checkride.

4) What plane would be suitable to hire for this distance, a grass
strip, 2 adults, 2 young children and some luggage?
5) What rate would you expect to pay per hour?
8) If I left on Friday afternoon and returned at dawn on Monday
morning, what additional charges are applied to the rental?

Cessna 172 or 182, a variety of planes in the Piper Cherokee line.
They'd be anywhere from $70-125/hr "wet Hobbs", meaning the time from
engine start to engine stop with everything included.

HOWEVER, and this is a big one: If you take a plane overnight almost
every FBO and club has some daily minimum. On weekends I've seen as
high as 4hours/day. The duration you mention will probably have
anywhere from a 4-10 hour minimum, regardless of how much you fly.
If you get stuck at the far end for some reason you may end up paying
for the FBO to come get it and ferry it back.

In addition you will probably have to reserve the plane a month or
more in advance, if you can get the whole weekend at all. And despite
the minimums the FBO may be grumpy about it or even cancel you at the
last minute for students.

Is this a realistic alternative idea for weekend family trips or a
pipe dream?

I think if you're serious about it you'll end up owning your own plane
alone or in a partnership. It's not cheaper but it's more realistic
for travelling.

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

So if you want to keep the airplane for the weekend,
they may want you to run the engine (and thus the rental meter) for 4
hours.


They don't make you run the engine, they just make you pay as if you did.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Boris" wrote in message
om...

1) Is 3K-5K a realistic estimate of the cost of getting VFR rated?

It was five years ago, when gas was cheaper. It is more like $7K - $9K now.

2) Being the Midwest, it is frequently cloudy. Is IFR a realistic
requirement to be able to return home safely on a given weekend?

IFR will help you in many ways and give the ability to sometimes go when you
could not otherwise, but it is not a guarantee that you can always fly.

3) Is another 3K-5K realistic for an IFR rating?

No. Another $7K - $9K is.

4) What plane would be suitable to hire for this distance, a grass
strip, 2 adults, 2 young children and some luggage?

A Cessna 172. These airplanes are known quantities. They are simple and
cheap to operate. They will fly in and out of just about anywhere. They have
a useful load of about 850 - 920 lbs. depending on model year and optional
equipment. That includes fuel, so the more fuel you carry the less
passengers and baggage you can carry. Fuel weighs 6 lbs./gal, and you will
burn about 10 gallons/hour. The tanks hold 38 gallons or more, depending on
the specific model and options.

If you need to carry more weight then you should look into the Cessna 182 or
a Cherokee 6 or something like that.

5) What rate would you expect to pay per hour?

A lot depends on how nice an airplane you want. An old beater will run you
about $70/hour. A new 172 SP with leather seats and advanced avionics will
run you over $100/hour.

6) If the answer to (2) is yes, what is the rental availability of IRF
aircraft and is there a premium?

Almost all Cessna 172s are IFR equipped, so that is not a problem. Rental
availability is a problem. You are better off buying your own plane or a
share in a club or a partnership if you plan to make frequent overnight
trips.

6) What would the flight time be?

The plane flies about 130 mph.

7) Can you generally leave your car at municipal airports free?

Generally.

8) If I left on Friday afternoon and returned at dawn on Monday
morning, what additional charges are applied to the rental?

There is usually a minimum charge for airplanes that will be gone overnight.
It is often moot, however. Finding a blank spot on the schedule that size,
especially during the busy flight training season, can be very difficult.

Is this a realistic alternative idea for weekend family trips or a
pipe dream?

It is definitely a better way to go than driving. You will arrive fresher
and more relaxed. You get to spend more time at your destination. You are
never stuck in traffic jams (but you could be stuck for a few hours waiting
for thunderstorms to clear out of your way -- even if you are IFR).

The short answer is NO. If you want to fly only or even mainly to
avoid this particular drive, it is not worth it. If you love to fly,
period, then that is another story. It also ends up costing alot more
than what you initially thought. Think $20k instead of $15k. Flying
VFR and particularly IFR is demanding work in the sense you have to
read regularly to keep up to date, fly regularly (an hour a week
minimumum, IMHO =+/-$400/month) to stay competent and current and
concentrate pretty intensely while in the clouds. Then, of course,
there is the safety factor of GA planes vs. automobiles. I think that
you have to take flying very seriously to be safe and if your desire
is to avoid the drive, then I think you might have to look seriously
at your interest level in flying first.

Tien
PP-MEI

(Boris) wrote in message . com...
The following are questions about the reality in going from no flying
experience to being qualified to fly my family away on weekends.
Please indicate if this is the wrong newsgroup for these questions.

The weekend drive from my home in Grosse Pointe, MI to Lake Ann, MI is
230 statute miles, about 4.5 to 5 hours each way.

Detroit to Traverse City (30 minutes from Lake Ann) is 180 nautical
miles. There are municipal airports near Grosse Pointe although I have
not investigated them. There is a grass strip about 5 minutes from
Lake Ann.

I dislike driving this distance for a weekend. I am considering flying
occasionally as an alternative.

1) Is 3K-5K a realistic estimate of the cost of getting VFR rated?
2) Being the Midwest, it is frequently cloudy. Is IFR a realistic
requirement to be able to return home safely on a given weekend?
3) Is another 3K-5K realistic for an IFR rating?
4) What plane would be suitable to hire for this distance, a grass
strip, 2 adults, 2 young children and some luggage?
5) What rate would you expect to pay per hour?
6) If the answer to (2) is yes, what is the rental availability of IRF
aircraft and is there a premium?
6) What would the flight time be?
7) Can you generally leave your car at municipal airports free?
8) If I left on Friday afternoon and returned at dawn on Monday
morning, what additional charges are applied to the rental?

Is this a realistic alternative idea for weekend family trips or a
pipe dream?

On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 01:29:18 GMT, Angus Davis
wrote:

On 4/15/04 5:27 PM, Boris wrote:

1) Is 3K-5K a realistic estimate of the cost of getting VFR rated?

Probably closer to $5k, or even higher, depending on things such as
buying headsets for your entire family, etc.

Where I learned to fly, the cost was $145 with an instructor and $99
solo. That seems about average, doesn't it?

The absolute minimum amount of time of training necessary to be
allowed to take your flight exam is 40 hours, right? I do not know
what percentage of that would be dual and what would be solo, but I
think the 40 hour figure is way low as most people these days take 20
and more hours just to get to the point where they can solo. 60 or 70
hours seems more reasonable before trying for the exam.

I'm guessing that there needs to be 20 to 30 hours of dual. Taking
the high end, that's $4350. Leaving 40 hours (again, taking the high
end) of solo time to build skills and do cross countries at $99/hour.
That's $3960. That totals $8310 for the ticket, not including
incidentals like headsets and gadgets like GPS's and handheld radios.

At the low end, assuming Boris takes to flying like a duck takes to
water, you have perhaps 20 hours of dual at $145/hour for $2900.
Another 20 hours of solo work at $99/hour for $1980 for a total of
$4880 to get the ticket.

My impression is that not many folks manage to get their license in
the minimum time so $5,000 looks like the absolute minimum, using
those average training costs you might expect.

Does that seem realistic?

Corky Scott