1 Fatal ...r.a.h or r.a.p?

Gil, and ????

Your probably right Jim I was thinking of Allen Barklage, he may not have
posted in RAH. Maybe someone else remembers if he did or not.

Just to let you know, I was not being combative, but I could not think of
any others. As far as Allen goes, I don't remember him posting here, unless
he was using an alias.

Bad business, that mini 500 bit. Strange, that nobody can remember any
rec.aviation deaths, then the mini comes up. Yet, it is said that it was
not the craft's fault. I still don't buy it.
--
Jim in NC

kd5sak wrote:

Same tactic killed Wiley Post and Will Rogers. Don't fly myself, but in a
lifetime of reading
I've seen several references to crashes occuring from pilots trying to turn
back to a runway
when they had a reasonably flat bit of terrain in front of them. It's been
said that Post knew better, but had the family fortune tied up in the plane
he and Will were traveling in and just let that drive his decision making.
What do some of you actual pilots think?

Harold
KD5SAK



It's hard to put any iron clad rules on it before hand as the situation
you are dealing with could be quite different each time.

I've never had one quit completely on me.
But I did have a C-85 sag rather dramatically on takeoff to the south
from Crystal River in Florida.

I had been idling too long and the plugs loaded up on me.
(Leo had trouble starting the T-Cart and I went to help him.)

I "burned them off" by running up a bit until the mags checked ok,
but at about 300 feet the thing went sour again.
I just got in a hurry to catch up with my lead.
Foolish lizard.

Hotel about 1/2 mile straight ahead(!), Interstate with bumper to
bumper traffic to the right, and a 4000 foot paved runway directly
below (cross ways). I mean directly straight down...

Damn it but that hotel suddenly looked real big!

I turned left for the cross wind runway, crabbing away from it in order
not to be blown further north, with the idea that if it did quit I'd
rather "land" someplace on the airport that in a parking lot.

The engine cleared in a dozen or so (very extremely way too long!) seconds
and I decided to abort the abort and head on home.

But I think the upholstery pattern is still imprinted on that pair of
jeans...

Thinking back on it (way after the fact), I probably should have turned
a little further north and let the wind blow me across the runway to set
up for a right base. I don't think I'd have made the runway if the engine
had quit from where I was. It would required a real tight turn from base
to final - down wind.

But I may have been a _little_ distracted and didn't think of it in time.

Sonny sez, "The problem with aviation is that you can't make the same mistake
_once_". He has a point, you know.

Richard

"Richard Lamb" wrote in message
ink.net...
kd5sak wrote:
I've seen several references to crashes occuring from pilots trying to
turn back to a runway when they had a reasonably flat bit of terrain in
front of them. It's been said that Post knew better, but had the family
fortune tied up in the plane he and Will were traveling in and just let
that drive his decision making. What do some of you actual pilots think?

Harold
KD5SAK


It's hard to put any iron clad rules on it before hand as the situation
you are dealing with could be quite different each time.

I've never had one quit completely on me.
But I did have a C-85 sag rather dramatically on takeoff to the south
from Crystal River in Florida.

I had been idling too long and the plugs loaded up on me.
(Leo had trouble starting the T-Cart and I went to help him.)

I "burned them off" by running up a bit until the mags checked ok,
but at about 300 feet the thing went sour again.
I just got in a hurry to catch up with my lead.
Foolish lizard.

Hotel about 1/2 mile straight ahead(!), Interstate with bumper to
bumper traffic to the right, and a 4000 foot paved runway directly
below (cross ways). I mean directly straight down...

Damn it but that hotel suddenly looked real big!

I turned left for the cross wind runway, crabbing away from it in order
not to be blown further north, with the idea that if it did quit I'd
rather "land" someplace on the airport that in a parking lot.

The engine cleared in a dozen or so (very extremely way too long!) seconds
and I decided to abort the abort and head on home.

But I think the upholstery pattern is still imprinted on that pair of
jeans...

Thinking back on it (way after the fact), I probably should have turned
a little further north and let the wind blow me across the runway to set
up for a right base. I don't think I'd have made the runway if the engine
had quit from where I was. It would required a real tight turn from base
to final - down wind.

But I may have been a _little_ distracted and didn't think of it in time.

Sonny sez, "The problem with aviation is that you can't make the same
mistake
_once_". He has a point, you know.

Richard

Thanks for the reply, after reading about it so often over the years I've
often
wondered what actual pilots might think. Nearest thing I've had happen was
motorcycling.
Cornered a long curve much too fast and drifted off the road and shoulder
until I wound up paralleling a 4 strand barbed wire fence about two feet
away at speed. Don't know how fast but had slowed some by then. Stayed out
of it and finally crossed back onto the road but kept thinking, "self, you
should have layed it down".I think it's almost always better to be lucky
than smart when critical decisions are necessary..

Harold
KD5SAK

"kd5sak" wrote in message
. ..
Thanks for the reply, after reading about it so often over the years I've
often
wondered what actual pilots might think. Nearest thing I've had happen was
motorcycling.

Actually, the 180 degree unpowered return from takeoff is a pretty constant
and well-known killer of pilots. The statics say it is much better to crash
straight ahead under control than to stall-spin-crash. Gliders are a bit of a
different story. I am a glider CFI and we actually teach 180 degree returns
from 400 feet.


Cornered a long curve much too fast and drifted off the road and shoulder
until I wound up paralleling a 4 strand barbed wire fence about two feet away
at speed. Don't know how fast but had slowed some by then. Stayed out of it
and finally crossed back onto the road but kept thinking, "self, you should
have layed it down".I think it's almost always better to be lucky than smart
when critical decisions are necessary..

I will never forget shortly after I traded my Honda 305 for an Earles-fork
BMW. I went tearing down the road following my friends. When we came to the
Interstate, they all gracefully took the 45 degree turn onto the on-ramp while I
(using the techniques learned from the sprightly little Honda) only managed
about 22 degrees...

Vaughn WB4UHB

I was tempted once, but the temptation went away with the
altitude...quickly.

I lost an engine on a C210 at about 300 ft, on departure. The thing quit
like someone had pulled the throttle, which turned out to be very close to
reality. In the shock of the moment, I thought about trying a turn, but
decided to plant it off the end of my departure runway(I was 3000' down a
4000' runway), instead. The clearway at the end was level and had no large
trees. I had already cleaned up the departure flaps, was climbing at 80kts,
and the gear doors were just closing when the thing quit. I immediately
selected the gear back down, and was flat amazed at the sink rate that
developed, no power, windmilling, with the gear in transit. At about 20',
still over the runway, I had to hold it off using flaps, to wait for the
gear to finish extending. The main gear came over center in the saddles,
just as I ran out of elevator, we touched down on the mains, and had to hold
the nose gear off long enough for it to extend. I slid onto the numbers at
the far end with the gear pump still running to close the doors, and got it
stopped. The engine lit off, and we taxied back to the tiedown, and
deplaned.
It turns out that this aircraft had recently come out of 100hr., and for
some reason they had the Airquipt(sp?) hose that runs from the air cleaner
to the turbo-charger off. When the mechanic put it back on, he didn't know
what to do with the ends of the metal wire that winds around the inside of
the hose. He bent each wire end into a little "U" shape, and hooked them
together in the middle of the hose. (They should have been placed under the
hose clamp at each end) A couple of hours later, with vibration, the glue
holding the wire failed, and hooked in the middle the wire collapsed like a
slinky, allowing the hose to collapse, shutting off all air to the turbo.
What really amazed me was how fast the altitude and airspeed went away.
When the thing first quit, I would have sworn I could not get down to my
departure runway before going off the end. I was wrong. Wrong by over a
thousand feet.

Al CFIAMI


"kd5sak" wrote in message
m...

"Dave S" wrote in message
nk.net...
JJS wrote:
The SQ2000 guy was flying a rotary (mazda derivative) engine that had
what the rotary community believes was an intermittent fuel supply
program and was in flight test at the time. The aircraft had made one
dead-stick due to what the community assumed was a vapor lock. This was a
fairly low altitude turn back and landing on-field but off-runway. After
some re-work on the fuel system he went up again, and on one of the
subsequent flights weeks later lost power very low, and tried to make
another low turn back to the runway. He ended up in trees.

Same tactic killed Wiley Post and Will Rogers. Don't fly myself, but in a
lifetime of reading
I've seen several references to crashes occuring from pilots trying to
turn back to a runway
when they had a reasonably flat bit of terrain in front of them. It's been
said that Post knew better, but had the family fortune tied up in the
plane he and Will were traveling in and just let that drive his decision
making. What do some of you actual pilots think?

Harold
KD5SAK

"Al" wrote in message
...
I was tempted once, but the temptation went away with the
altitude...quickly.

What really amazed me was how fast the altitude and airspeed went away.
When the thing first quit, I would have sworn I could not get down to my
departure runway before going off the end. I was wrong. Wrong by over a
thousand feet.

Al CFIAMI


I'm beginning to be glad the wife would'nt let me buy a kitplane when I
first retired
10 years ago. You guys have some real interesting stories to tell. Hmmm,
someone should start an aviation close calls recounting group.

Harold
KD5SAK

"Al" wrote in message
...
I was tempted once, but the temptation went away with the
altitude...quickly.

I lost an engine on a C210 at about 300 ft, on departure. The thing
quit
like someone had pulled the throttle, which turned out to be very close to
reality. In the shock of the moment, I thought about trying a turn, but
decided to plant it off the end of my departure runway(I was 3000' down a
4000' runway), instead. The clearway at the end was level and had no large
trees. I had already cleaned up the departure flaps, was climbing at
80kts,
and the gear doors were just closing when the thing quit. I immediately
selected the gear back down, and was flat amazed at the sink rate that
developed, no power, windmilling, with the gear in transit. At about 20',
still over the runway, I had to hold it off using flaps, to wait for the
gear to finish extending. The main gear came over center in the saddles,
just as I ran out of elevator, we touched down on the mains, and had to
hold
the nose gear off long enough for it to extend. I slid onto the numbers at
the far end with the gear pump still running to close the doors, and got
it
stopped. The engine lit off, and we taxied back to the tiedown, and
deplaned.
It turns out that this aircraft had recently come out of 100hr., and
for
some reason they had the Airquipt(sp?) hose that runs from the air cleaner
to the turbo-charger off. When the mechanic put it back on, he didn't know
what to do with the ends of the metal wire that winds around the inside of
the hose. He bent each wire end into a little "U" shape, and hooked them
together in the middle of the hose. (They should have been placed under
the
hose clamp at each end) A couple of hours later, with vibration, the glue
holding the wire failed, and hooked in the middle the wire collapsed like
a
slinky, allowing the hose to collapse, shutting off all air to the turbo.
What really amazed me was how fast the altitude and airspeed went
away.
When the thing first quit, I would have sworn I could not get down to my
departure runway before going off the end. I was wrong. Wrong by over a
thousand feet.

Al CFIAMI


I never tried it "for real", but had the experience on one "simulation"
about 25 years ago.

I was a student pilot in a Cessna 150M, with an instructor. And, I suppose
that I had always been visibly nervous regarding the "what if the engine
quits" scenario.

In any case, we took off into a head wind of around 12 knots (on the ground)
from a 3000 foot paved runway on a little "training only" airport. The
instructor said to climb until I believed that I could make it back to land
on the reciprocal, then pull the power and try it. I really doubt that such
a demonstration was approved, much less encouraged, even then; and it may
have been my first attempt at a down wind landing as well!

In any event, we climbed to a little more than 350 feet before I pulled the
power to idle; and promptly began my turn back tothe runway. As I
mentioned, I had heard all of those horror stories about how it was suicidal
to attempt a turn greater than 90 degrees; and this required a turn or at
least 225 degrees, a short straight glide, and then about 45 degrees back
the other way--all before the final glide, flap extension, and flare. I did
not simulate the customary 4 seconds of disbelief, nor did I simulate a
reasonable period of indicision regarding what to do next--to turn or not to
turn was never the question--I just applied the carburetor heat, pushed the
nose over, and cranked it into the turn ... and the limitations of my chosen
procedure only gradually became apparent.

Now, I should mention that I am not really a fan of high winged aircraft. I
admit that they have their practical side--lighter structure for a given
strength, ease of undercarriage inspection, and the wing is well clear of
most of the "stuff" on an narrow and unimproved runway. Still, as I said, I
am not a fan. A wing is really a think that one should sit upon; it is not
a thing that one should attempt to look through.

So, I continued around the turn, still at a safe altitude and with the
engine idling smoothly, and the runway eventually came into view. And I
continued around, still at a safe, and saw that I was really not far from
the runway at all. Therefore, I continued the turn to about the 270 degree
point before making a roll reversal--and finally getting the flaps down. By
then, I was just about over the runway and diving with full flaps. It then
became intuitively obvious, to even the most casual observer, that I was
much too high.

As to the outcome? We flew away without lnading.

One of these days I still plan to get back to flying, and to make the
transition from former student to current pilot. Until then, there are
memories of a time when flying was more innocent, a little crazier, and a
lot more fun!

Peter

Peter Dohm wrote:
I did
not simulate the customary 4 seconds of disbelief, nor did I simulate a
reasonable period of indicision regarding what to do next--

Peter


Very astute observation, Peter.

The informal group also found that he was significantly aft CG.

There are only about 5% of peoples in the parade (flying and builders
pilots).

Another 15% standing by the runway and watching the parade ( sometime
commenting and/or criticizing).

And the rest (80%) don't even know there is a parade.

Jean-Paul

"kd5sak" wrote in message
. com...

"Al" wrote in message
...
I was tempted once, but the temptation went away with the
altitude...quickly.

What really amazed me was how fast the altitude and airspeed went
away.
When the thing first quit, I would have sworn I could not get down to my
departure runway before going off the end. I was wrong. Wrong by over a
thousand feet.

Al CFIAMI


I'm beginning to be glad the wife would'nt let me buy a kitplane when I
first retired
10 years ago. You guys have some real interesting stories to tell. Hmmm,
someone should start an aviation close calls recounting group.

Harold
KD5SAK