STAR to nearby airport

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Teacherjh) wrote:


We negotiated on the ground for an hour. Their alternative was either
7000
and
their routing, or come back tomorrow. They were not going to give me
anything
else for any reason.


I'll add to this... that I brought this up at a WINGS safety meeting
(meet
with
the controllers) and they confirmed that that is the way they do
business in
the NY area.

Jose

I've had similar conversations with CD at White Plains. The gist of
them is usually something like, "unable 8000 due to icing", "OK, you
need to work it out with the departure controller once you're in the
air".

It's stupid, but at least you need to stick to your guns. I've done it
a few times. You take off, and check in with departu

"New York, Arrow 3875T, 1200 climbing 3000".

"Radar contact, climb maintain 8000".

"Unable 8000 due to icing"

"Nobody told me that, weren't you cleared to 8000 on the ground?"

"Yup, and I said unable, and the ground controller told me to work it
out with you"

eventually, they find something to do with you, but it sure doesn't seem
like the right way to run things.

Hm, I think I'd assume that it's not safe or legal for me to take off on a
clearance that I know I can't safely or legally fly (even if that's what the
ground controller suggests). It's a shame if the system expects us to do
that.

--Gary

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

I've had similar conversations with CD at White Plains. The gist of
them is usually something like, "unable 8000 due to icing", "OK, you
need to work it out with the departure controller once you're in the
air".

It's stupid, but at least you need to stick to your guns. I've done it
a few times. You take off, and check in with departu

"New York, Arrow 3875T, 1200 climbing 3000".

"Radar contact, climb maintain 8000".

"Unable 8000 due to icing"

"Nobody told me that, weren't you cleared to 8000 on the ground?"

"Yup, and I said unable, and the ground controller told me to work it
out with you"

eventually, they find something to do with you, but it sure doesn't seem
like the right way to run things.


What was your plan if departure couldn't find something to do with you?

In article . net,
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

I've had similar conversations with CD at White Plains. The gist of
them is usually something like, "unable 8000 due to icing", "OK, you
need to work it out with the departure controller once you're in the
air".

It's stupid, but at least you need to stick to your guns. I've done it
a few times. You take off, and check in with departu

"New York, Arrow 3875T, 1200 climbing 3000".

"Radar contact, climb maintain 8000".

"Unable 8000 due to icing"

"Nobody told me that, weren't you cleared to 8000 on the ground?"

"Yup, and I said unable, and the ground controller told me to work it
out with you"

eventually, they find something to do with you, but it sure doesn't seem
like the right way to run things.


What was your plan if departure couldn't find something to do with you?

Didn't really have one, but so far they've always managed to work
something out. I'm not saying this is a good (or particularly smart)
thing, but I see it more as a problem for ATC than for me (as long as I
don't let them talk me into climbing into the ice).

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

Didn't really have one, but so far they've always managed to work
something out. I'm not saying this is a good (or particularly smart)
thing, but I see it more as a problem for ATC than for me (as long as I
don't let them talk me into climbing into the ice).


Didn't clearance delivery already talk you into climbing into the ice?
What's your plan if departure doesn't have an alternative for you?

N12345: "White Plains departure, unable 8000 due to icing, request 3000 as
final today"
WPD: "Negative, climb and maintain 8000"
N12345: "N12345 declaring an emergency"....

The Feds would smile all the way to your hearing on this one...it is an
emergency of your own making


--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

In article , Ray Andraka
wrote:

N12345: "White Plains departure, unable 8000 due to icing, request 3000 as
final today"
WPD: "Negative, climb and maintain 8000"
N12345: "N12345 declaring an emergency"....

The Feds would smile all the way to your hearing on this one...it is an
emergency of your own making

This was going to be my response.
The FARs prohibit you from flying into icing in an aircraft not
certified for icing. By accepting the clearance, you are violating the
FARs.

Which leads to another question...

If ATC issues a clearance which will cause you to violate the FARs, are
you legally bound to accept it?

"EDR" wrote in message
...

If ATC issues a clearance which will cause you to violate the FARs, are
you legally bound to accept it?


No, and that is made known to controllers.


FAA Order 7110.65P Air Traffic Control

Chapter 2. General Control

Section 1. General

2-1-1. ATC SERVICE

The primary purpose of the ATC system is to prevent a collision
between aircraft operating in the system and to organize and expedite the
flow of traffic. In addition to its primary function, the ATC system has the
capability to provide (with certain limitations) additional services. The
ability to provide additional services is limited by many factors, such as
the volume of traffic, frequency congestion, quality of radar, controller
workload, higher priority duties, and the pure physical inability to scan
and detect those situations that fall in this category. It is recognized
that these services cannot be provided in cases in which the provision of
services is precluded by the above factors. Consistent with the
aforementioned conditions, controllers shall provide additional service
procedures to the extent permitted by higher priority duties and other
circumstances. The provision of additional services is not optional on the
part of the controller, but rather is required when the work situation
permits. Provide air traffic control service in accordance with the
procedures and minima in this order except when:

a. A deviation is necessary to conform with ICAO Documents, National
Rules of the Air, or special agreements where the U.S. provides air traffic
control service in airspace outside the U.S. and its possessions or:

NOTE-
Pilots are required to abide by CFRs or other applicable regulations
regardless of the application of any procedure or minima in this order.

b. Other procedures/minima are prescribed in a letter of agreement,
FAA directive, or a military document, or:

NOTE-
These procedures may include altitude reservations, air refueling,
fighter interceptor operations, law enforcement, etc.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Procedural Letters of Agreement, Para 1-1-8.

c. A deviation is necessary to assist an aircraft when an emergency
has been declared.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Safety Alert, Para 2-1-6.
FAAO 7110.65, Emergencies, Chapter 10.
FAAO 7110.65, Merging Target Procedures, Para 5-1-8.

But be careful because ATC may have to have you at 8000. So if you are
unable you may be parked for a long while.


If I'm picking up ice, the laws of physics will take over, and whether or not
they "have to have me" at 8000, I won't be there.

Jose



--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

If ATC issues a clearance which will cause you to violate the FARs, are
you legally bound to accept it?


No.

If you are in the air, you still fly your old clearance while you reject the
new one and you and ATC work it out. If you are on the ground however, ATC has
no incentive to work it out with you. You end up staying on the ground.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

If you are in the air, you still fly your old clearance while you reject
the
new one and you and ATC work it out. If you are on the ground however,
ATC has
no incentive to work it out with you. You end up staying on the ground.

what old clearance? You were told told to expect 8,000 on the ground.
Taking off is by definition acceptance of a clearance.