Logging Right Seat Time

"Newps" wrote in message
...
Nobody with more than three brain cells left who goes flying for an hour
and lets their 10 year old kid fly for 30 minutes of that hour only logs
30 minutes as PIC.

Why? Even if you're convinced that the FAA didn't mean what it said when it
wrote 61.51e (which is quite possible), what would be the harm in playing it
safe and logging no more time than the FARs actually say you can log?

--Gary

In article ,
Jose wrote:

So, you (a regular private pilot) go up in a 172 with a friend who is
not a pilot, you let him take the controls while you very carefully
supervise her, and you can't log the time PIC.


That's right. Not only that, but you've probably broken FAR 91.13 by
letting a person without a valid pilot certificate fly the plane.

You break 91.13 at the FAA's discretion. But I see nothing careless or
reckless unless I take a nap.

As you yourself observed, what you see doesn't matter. It's what the
FAA sees that counts.

The next day you fly a
Cirrus by programming the CID (Cirrus Autoflight Device) and pushing the
GO button, essentially become a passenger while the glass cockpit does
the work, and all that time goes in your book as PIC.


That's right, because you're still responsible if the CID goes belly-up.

You're still responsible if the organic autopilot goes awry too.

Yes, but to legally take on that responsibility "on the record" requires
an instructor's certificate.

I think this structuring of the rules is deliberate and not just an
oversight. It would have been easy enough to say that a pilot can log
PIC any time he is acting as PIC, but they apparently went to a lot of
effort not to say that. I think this was a deliberate attempt to
arrange things in such a way that turning over the controls to Aunt
Tillie is not explicitly banned, but that if you choose to do so and
anything goes wrong as a result (even in retrospect) they can nail your
ass to the wall.

There are actually other circumstances under which someone acting as PIC
can't log the time. For example, if an unlicensed passenger in a plane
where the pilot is incapacitated takes over and lands the plane then
that passenger is PIC operating (presumably) under the authority of
91.3(b). But he still can't log the time.

rg

In article ,
"Gary Drescher" wrote:

"Ron Garret" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jose wrote:

So, you (a regular private pilot) go up in a 172 with a friend who is
not a pilot, you let him take the controls while you very carefully
supervise her, and you can't log the time PIC.

That's right. Not only that, but you've probably broken FAR 91.13 by
letting a person without a valid pilot certificate fly the plane.

No you haven't. There is nothing inherently careless and reckless about
letting a non-pilot passenger manipulate the controls. It's a routine and
accepted practice. Have you ever read of an FAA opinion criticizing the
practice, or an enforcement action taken for that reason?

I said "probably", but perhaps I should have said "possibly". I know
it's an accepted practice, and I don't know of any FAA action against
it, but I haven't read all the case law. It wouldn't surprise me a bit
if the FAA used 91.13 in a situation where something bad happened as a
result of someone letting a passenger fly.

In any case, the bottom line here is that yes, not all the time you
spend being PIC or acting as PIC is loggable as PIC time.

rg

"Ron Garret" wrote in message
...
I think this structuring of the rules is deliberate and not just an
oversight. It would have been easy enough to say that a pilot can log
PIC any time he is acting as PIC, but they apparently went to a lot of
effort not to say that.

In a flight that doesn't require multiple pilots, the FAA does not want two
pilots to log PIC time simultaneously (one as the actual PIC, the other as
the rated sole manipulator). I'd guess that's why they don't just say that
time *as* PIC is *loggable* as PIC time. They probably just didn't think of
the non-pilot-manipulator case when they wrote the regulation.

I think this was a deliberate attempt to
arrange things in such a way that turning over the controls to Aunt
Tillie is not explicitly banned, but that if you choose to do so and
anything goes wrong as a result (even in retrospect) they can nail your
ass to the wall.

It's be just as easy for them to nail you if the time were loggable.

--Gary

In article ,
"Gary Drescher" wrote:

"Ron Garret" wrote in message
...
I think this structuring of the rules is deliberate and not just an
oversight. It would have been easy enough to say that a pilot can log
PIC any time he is acting as PIC, but they apparently went to a lot of
effort not to say that.

In a flight that doesn't require multiple pilots, the FAA does not want two
pilots to log PIC time simultaneously (one as the actual PIC, the other as
the rated sole manipulator). I'd guess that's why they don't just say that
time *as* PIC is *loggable* as PIC time. They probably just didn't think of
the non-pilot-manipulator case when they wrote the regulation.

I think this was a deliberate attempt to
arrange things in such a way that turning over the controls to Aunt
Tillie is not explicitly banned, but that if you choose to do so and
anything goes wrong as a result (even in retrospect) they can nail your
ass to the wall.

It's be just as easy for them to nail you if the time were loggable.

Yeah, you're probably right. I concede the point.

rg

Ron Garret wrote...
It wouldn't surprise me a bit
if the FAA used 91.13 in a situation where something bad happened as a
result of someone letting a passenger fly.

The "something bad" would not be as a result of letting a passenger fly,
it would be as a result of insufficient cockpit management. Same as a
runaway trim or autopilot malfunction.

and also responded to
You're still responsible if the organic autopilot goes awry too.

with

Yes, but to legally take on that responsibility "on the record" requires
an instructor's certificate.

My understanding is that what the instructor certificate allows is for
the student to count the instruction towards the required flight time.
It has nothing to do with "taking on the responsibility".

Jose
--
The price of freedom is... well... freedom.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Nobody with more than three brain cells left who goes flying for an hour and lets their 10 year old kid fly for 30 minutes of that hour only logs 30 minutes as PIC.

Well that leaves me out. I have three functioning brain cells, of which
only two operate at the same time.

How many rat cells is the new organic autopilot made from?

Jose
--
The price of freedom is... well... freedom.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:


This is a serious question, especially considering the capabilities of
some robots, and the lack of capability of some organic autopilots.

This is where I usually make some crack about the sole manipulator of
the pilot in command.

Huh?



"T o d d P a t t i s t" wrote in message
...
Ron Garret wrote:

So, you (a regular private pilot) go up in a 172 with a friend who is
not a pilot, you let him take the controls while you very carefully
supervise her, and you can't log the time PIC.

That's right.

It's not right. It's perfectly legal to log all the time as
PIC, and that's what most pilots do.


"It is possible to fly without motors, but not without knowledge and
skill."
Wilbur Wright

Talk the pilot flying into doing it under the hood with you as safety
pilot AND PIC while he/she's under there. You log it as PIC and
they log it as sole manipulator. Plus they get the Instrument time.
Man .. is life great or what.


"CloudyIFR" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm a Part 135 pilot and we're starting to get a lot of missions that
are two pilot crews. These are in airplanes that don't require a SIC
as the AutoPilots work, we're not flying over 8 hours and it's not
required by the Type certificate.

I'm a Captain in all the planes but move to the right seat often. When
I'm in the right seat what can I log? From my reading of the FAR's I
can only log Total Time. Is that correct? I can't log PIC as I'm not
the PIC nor sole manipulator of the controls. Can I log landings,
Instrument, X/C, etc..?

If you have a reference I'd appreciate it.

Thanks for the help.

Curt