Step-up Planning

I now own a PA28R201T, Piper Turbo Arrow III. It is a great plane
(although, as some of you know, I have had more than my share of
"challenges"). At altitude it cruises at 170 knots. Cost to operate is
around $90/hour (figuring maintenance and such). My range requirement
is 660nm with 45 minutes of fuel left offer. I most often fly it
single-pilot IFR. Lately, I have begun thinking about the next step up,
which I am planning for 2 years from now...but one can't start too early
to consider options. So, here are my goals.

Range: 600nm with IFR reserve
Speed: 250 knots or better
Ceiling: 25,000 or better (Pressurized Cabin)
Passengers: 4 seater
Operating Cost: Would prefer round trip, 1320nm, cost less than $1000
Budget: $500K

Suggestions would be most welcome. I would like to narrow the search
down to 2 or 3 that comes as close as possible to my requirements. Is a
turbo-prop out of the question? Thanks in advance.

-Sami
N2057M, Piper Turbo Arrow III

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...

Range: 600nm with IFR reserve
Speed: 250 knots or better
Ceiling: 25,000 or better (Pressurized Cabin)
Passengers: 4 seater
Operating Cost: Would prefer round trip, 1320nm, cost less than $1000
Budget: $500K

Out of speed, pressurization, and operating cost I think you're going to
need to give one up.

A P210 or Malibu just isn't going to give you those speeds and I think you
*may* have issues with payload if you want to fill the seats for the trip.
You're really looking at something like a P-337 Riley Rocket, 420-series
Cessna, or Aerostar, and operating costs on any of those are going to bust
your budget. OTOH you will find plenty of good heavy piston twins for under
500k. Of course that's not a coincidence.

-cwk.

Considering the requirement of 250kts or better there are no piston
airplanes to consider. No turboprop will meet the $200/hr requirement. I
doubt that a pressurized piston twin will meet the $200/hr requirment either
You can get the range, speed, load hauling and altitude if you spend more on
operating cost or you can get the stated operating and aqusition cost if you
are willing to go 200kts.instead of 250.

To look at it from another perspective, if you figure that cost is about 3X
fuel then you have $67hr to spend on fuel/hr which is only about 26GPH.
nothing will take four people 600nm with reserves at 250kts on 26GPH.

Keep in mind that you are going to spend about $5000 a year on training and
over $10,000 (maybe $20K) on insurance. If you fly 100hrs a year (25,000 nm
of travel, a lot), then insurance and training will cost $150/hr.

There is a point of rapidly dimishing returns on going faster. The cost
goes up geometrically and the time saved goes down less than linearly
because of taxi and approach speed restrictions. I would focus on more
weather capability (two engines, radar, known ice) and take whatever speed
that comes with the package.

Mike
MU-2


"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...
I now own a PA28R201T, Piper Turbo Arrow III. It is a great plane
(although, as some of you know, I have had more than my share of
"challenges"). At altitude it cruises at 170 knots. Cost to operate is
around $90/hour (figuring maintenance and such). My range requirement is
660nm with 45 minutes of fuel left offer. I most often fly it single-pilot
IFR. Lately, I have begun thinking about the next step up, which I am
planning for 2 years from now...but one can't start too early to consider
options. So, here are my goals.

Range: 600nm with IFR reserve
Speed: 250 knots or better
Ceiling: 25,000 or better (Pressurized Cabin)
Passengers: 4 seater
Operating Cost: Would prefer round trip, 1320nm, cost less than $1000
Budget: $500K

Suggestions would be most welcome. I would like to narrow the search down
to 2 or 3 that comes as close as possible to my requirements. Is a
turbo-prop out of the question? Thanks in advance.

-Sami
N2057M, Piper Turbo Arrow III

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:20:17 -0500, "O. Sami Saydjari"
wrote:

I now own a PA28R201T, Piper Turbo Arrow III. It is a great plane
(although, as some of you know, I have had more than my share of
"challenges"). At altitude it cruises at 170 knots. Cost to operate is
around $90/hour (figuring maintenance and such). My range requirement
is 660nm with 45 minutes of fuel left offer. I most often fly it
single-pilot IFR. Lately, I have begun thinking about the next step up,
which I am planning for 2 years from now...but one can't start too early
to consider options. So, here are my goals.

Range: 600nm with IFR reserve
Speed: 250 knots or better
Ceiling: 25,000 or better (Pressurized Cabin)
Passengers: 4 seater
Operating Cost: Would prefer round trip, 1320nm, cost less than $1000
Budget: $500K

Suggestions would be most welcome. I would like to narrow the search
down to 2 or 3 that comes as close as possible to my requirements. Is a
turbo-prop out of the question? Thanks in advance.

A tough mix. Only one piston single will meet your reqs, and it is
experimental, a Lancair IV-P.

Highspeed cruise: 290kts
Ceiling: 25000
Pressurized: Yes
Passengers: 4 seats
Available on aso.com for $500k
Range : 1000nm
Direct fuel operating costs ~25gph = $75/hr, so a 1320nm trip /250kts
= $400 in fuel. Plenty of margin ($600 for maintenance, oil, etc).

There is also a propjet version of the IV-P, which will do 330kts+.
Range goes down because of the fuelconsumption of the ~600shp turbine.

Other twin pistons to consider:
Piper Aerostar:
Baron 58P.

Most turbine twins could meet your requirements, but would be
difficult to find good ones in the $500k budget, and the $1000 round
trip will be tough.

The insurance costs on these planes will be astonishing. Be sure to
shop that around before doing anything. You will be looking at a
minimum of $10k/year, perhaps considerably higher.

Haven't crunched the numbers but I remember a turbocharged Lancair 400
possibly fitting the bill--but it's not pressurized. Might be worth a look
if you don't mind oxygen.

Marco Leon


"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...
I now own a PA28R201T, Piper Turbo Arrow III. It is a great plane
(although, as some of you know, I have had more than my share of
"challenges"). At altitude it cruises at 170 knots. Cost to operate is
around $90/hour (figuring maintenance and such). My range requirement
is 660nm with 45 minutes of fuel left offer. I most often fly it
single-pilot IFR. Lately, I have begun thinking about the next step up,
which I am planning for 2 years from now...but one can't start too early
to consider options. So, here are my goals.

Range: 600nm with IFR reserve
Speed: 250 knots or better
Ceiling: 25,000 or better (Pressurized Cabin)
Passengers: 4 seater
Operating Cost: Would prefer round trip, 1320nm, cost less than $1000
Budget: $500K

Suggestions would be most welcome. I would like to narrow the search
down to 2 or 3 that comes as close as possible to my requirements. Is a
turbo-prop out of the question? Thanks in advance.

-Sami
N2057M, Piper Turbo Arrow III

dream on. In my opinion you are looking for something that doesn't yet
exist. I think a personal jet could fill the bill too bad no one
has built one yet.... and for a pirce that actual individuals could
afford.

C Kingsbury wrote:
"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...


Range: 600nm with IFR reserve
Speed: 250 knots or better
Ceiling: 25,000 or better (Pressurized Cabin)
Passengers: 4 seater
Operating Cost: Would prefer round trip, 1320nm, cost less than $1000
Budget: $500K

No such piston animal. You're looking at a King Air, Metroliner or
Beech 1900 as a bare minimum.

"Newps" wrote in message ...


Range: 600nm with IFR reserve
Speed: 250 knots or better
Ceiling: 25,000 or better (Pressurized Cabin)
Passengers: 4 seater
Operating Cost: Would prefer round trip, 1320nm, cost less than $1000
Budget: $500K

No such piston animal. You're looking at a King Air, Metroliner or
Beech 1900 as a bare minimum.

A King Air would struggle to maintain 250.

Some of the single turboprops would also work...Meridian, TBM, Pilatus.

Nathan, Yes, I looked at the specs on a Lancair IV-P. They sound too
good to be true. How can they be soo much better than the nearest
competitor in the class? Does anyone out there have direct experience
with one of these? What is the catch?

-sami

Nathan Young wrote:

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:20:17 -0500, "O. Sami Saydjari"
wrote:


I now own a PA28R201T, Piper Turbo Arrow III. It is a great plane
(although, as some of you know, I have had more than my share of
"challenges"). At altitude it cruises at 170 knots. Cost to operate is
around $90/hour (figuring maintenance and such). My range requirement
is 660nm with 45 minutes of fuel left offer. I most often fly it
single-pilot IFR. Lately, I have begun thinking about the next step up,
which I am planning for 2 years from now...but one can't start too early
to consider options. So, here are my goals.

Range: 600nm with IFR reserve
Speed: 250 knots or better
Ceiling: 25,000 or better (Pressurized Cabin)
Passengers: 4 seater
Operating Cost: Would prefer round trip, 1320nm, cost less than $1000
Budget: $500K

Suggestions would be most welcome. I would like to narrow the search
down to 2 or 3 that comes as close as possible to my requirements. Is a
turbo-prop out of the question? Thanks in advance.


A tough mix. Only one piston single will meet your reqs, and it is
experimental, a Lancair IV-P.

Highspeed cruise: 290kts
Ceiling: 25000
Pressurized: Yes
Passengers: 4 seats
Available on aso.com for $500k
Range : 1000nm
Direct fuel operating costs ~25gph = $75/hr, so a 1320nm trip /250kts
= $400 in fuel. Plenty of margin ($600 for maintenance, oil, etc).

There is also a propjet version of the IV-P, which will do 330kts+.
Range goes down because of the fuelconsumption of the ~600shp turbine.

Other twin pistons to consider:
Piper Aerostar:
Baron 58P.

Most turbine twins could meet your requirements, but would be
difficult to find good ones in the $500k budget, and the $1000 round
trip will be tough.

The insurance costs on these planes will be astonishing. Be sure to
shop that around before doing anything. You will be looking at a
minimum of $10k/year, perhaps considerably higher.

Mike Rapoport wrote:

Considering the requirement of 250kts or better there are no piston
airplanes to consider. No turboprop will meet the $200/hr requirement. I
doubt that a pressurized piston twin will meet the $200/hr requirment either
You can get the range, speed, load hauling and altitude if you spend more on
operating cost or you can get the stated operating and aqusition cost if you
are willing to go 200kts.instead of 250.

Well, perhaps I can back-off on the operating costs a bit. Any idea on
how far i would have to back-off to make my speed goal?


Keep in mind that you are going to spend about $5000 a year on training and
over $10,000 (maybe $20K) on insurance. If you fly 100hrs a year (25,000 nm
of travel, a lot), then insurance and training will cost $150/hr.

Wow, interesting. I did not imagine insureance would be quite that much.


There is a point of rapidly dimishing returns on going faster. The cost
goes up geometrically and the time saved goes down less than linearly
because of taxi and approach speed restrictions.

Yes, but for long trips, like mine, it seems worth it. For a 1-2 hour
trip, I can definitely see your point, but for 4-5 hour trips, it seems
that the trip time savings is significant.

I would focus on more
weather capability (two engines, radar, known ice) and take whatever speed
that comes with the package.

Yes. Good points. Known ice will be key for me. For business travel,
I need to be able to go when I need to go.


Mike
MU-2


"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...

I now own a PA28R201T, Piper Turbo Arrow III. It is a great plane
(although, as some of you know, I have had more than my share of
"challenges"). At altitude it cruises at 170 knots. Cost to operate is
around $90/hour (figuring maintenance and such). My range requirement is
660nm with 45 minutes of fuel left offer. I most often fly it single-pilot
IFR. Lately, I have begun thinking about the next step up, which I am
planning for 2 years from now...but one can't start too early to consider
options. So, here are my goals.

Range: 600nm with IFR reserve
Speed: 250 knots or better
Ceiling: 25,000 or better (Pressurized Cabin)
Passengers: 4 seater
Operating Cost: Would prefer round trip, 1320nm, cost less than $1000
Budget: $500K

Suggestions would be most welcome. I would like to narrow the search down
to 2 or 3 that comes as close as possible to my requirements. Is a
turbo-prop out of the question? Thanks in advance.

-Sami
N2057M, Piper Turbo Arrow III