If you are looking for a fight...

In article ,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: If you are looking for a fight...
From: David Lentz

"They also serve, who only stand and wait."

I don't think the company clerk equals a squadron commander. I don't think
that a mess hall orderly equals a Navigator. I don't think the corporal of
the guard equals a wing commander. I don't think that the morale, VD and
entertainment officer equals a bombardier. Are they all important? Sure.


Art, have you accomplished *anything* since the war? Just curious.

--

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Subject: If you are looking for a fight...
From: Mike18XX
Date: 7/8/03 9:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

"They also serve, who only stand and wait."

I don't think the company clerk equals a squadron commander. I don't think
that a mess hall orderly equals a Navigator. I don't think the corporal of
the guard equals a wing commander. I don't think that the morale, VD and
entertainment officer equals a bombardier. Are they all important? Sure.


Art, have you accomplished *anything* since the war? Just curious

I'll answer only becuse you asked politely.

Senior Vice President Creative Supervisor J.. Walter Thompson Company New
York. At the time the world's largest ad agency. Clients: Ford Motor Company,
Eastman Kodak. Winner of 7 CLIOS for advertising excellance. Retired after 20
years service.

Lecturer New School for Social Research New York

Editor Modern Photography Magazine columnist and feature writer. Author of
column View From Kramer

Author of Techniques of Color Photography published by Unversal Books,
Library of Congress card # 57-10341

President Arthur Kramer Advertising NY. clients Nikon, AMF and Computer
Associates, 10 years


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: If you are looking for a fight...
From: Mike18XX
Date: 7/8/03 9:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: If you are looking for a fight...
From: David Lentz

"They also serve, who only stand and wait."

I don't think the company clerk equals a squadron commander. I don't think
that a mess hall orderly equals a Navigator. I don't think the corporal of
the guard equals a wing commander. I don't think that the morale, VD and
entertainment officer equals a bombardier. Are they all important? Sure.


Art, have you accomplished *anything* since the war? Just curious.


There's more. To bring oyu up to date since reitrement I have been a sturdent
at UNLV for the past 7 years. Right now I'll be entering my second year of
Constitutional Law. My area of concentration includes the cases of Chief
Justice Taney (Dredd Scott) also Madison vs Marberry and judicial review and
the Commerce Clause. Oh yes, I am also an exhibiting photographer with fine
art exhibits at The George Eastman House and various unversities. Gotta run
along now I am shooting skeet at NELLIS AFB early in the am and have to hit
the sack.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

And the idea that in the
military all are equal is nonsense.


Depends what you consider "equal". I've got nearly 50 combat sorties, I would
have exactly zero if not for two crew chiefs who pre-flighted and launched me
on those 50 sorties.

Out of those 50 sorties, my jet probably required some kind of speacialist work
prior to the flight on at least 30 of them. That means without the hydraulics,
electrics, GaC, Fuels, Comm Nav guys/gals, I would only have 20 combat sorties.

Furthermore, on every one of my sorties I carried (ok, actually the EW carries)
cryptographic material so that I can communicate with both C2 agencies and
ground units. Without the enlisted folks that download, prepare and maintain
that material, I would have had exactly zero effective combat sorties.

I guess what I'm trying to say Art is that I whole heartedly disagree, the idea
that in the military all are equal (as far as contribution to the mission of
putting bombs on target) is not nonsense, but the essence of the military.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Subject: If you are looking for a fight...
From: (BUFDRVR)
Date: 7/9/03 4:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

And the idea that in the
military all are equal is nonsense.


Depends what you consider "equal". I've got nearly 50 combat sorties, I would
have exactly zero if not for two crew chiefs who pre-flighted and launched me
on those 50 sorties.

Out of those 50 sorties, my jet probably required some kind of speacialist
work
prior to the flight on at least 30 of them. That means without the
hydraulics,
electrics, GaC, Fuels, Comm Nav guys/gals, I would only have 20 combat
sorties.

Furthermore, on every one of my sorties I carried (ok, actually the EW
carries)
cryptographic material so that I can communicate with both C2 agencies and
ground units. Without the enlisted folks that download, prepare and maintain
that material, I would have had exactly zero effective combat sorties.

I guess what I'm trying to say Art is that I whole heartedly disagree, the
idea
that in the military all are equal (as far as contribution to the mission of
putting bombs on target) is not nonsense, but the essence of the military.


BUFDRVR


You have read more into my post than is there. Note that I never mentioned
those with high essental skills. I never rnentioned mechanics, Nor did I
mention bombsight technicians I compared those with low skills or no skills
easily replaced against those with essential skills I thought I made that
clear. Sorry if I didn't..

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

(ArtKramr) wrote in message ...
Seems to be something wrong when you want to fight and they won't let you.

Do you think we would have won WWII if everyone who wanted to fight,
got to? You can't send everyone who wants to be there, to the front.

Wars were more fun back then.

More fun huh? That's messed up.

~Michael

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: If you are looking for a fight...
From: Mike18XX
Date: 7/8/03 9:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: If you are looking for a fight...
From: David Lentz

"They also serve, who only stand and wait."

I don't think the company clerk equals a squadron commander. I don't
think
that a mess hall orderly equals a Navigator. I don't think the
corporal of
the guard equals a wing commander. I don't think that the morale, VD and
entertainment officer equals a bombardier. Are they all important? Sure.


Art, have you accomplished *anything* since the war? Just curious.


There's more. To bring oyu up to date since reitrement I have been a
sturdent
at UNLV for the past 7 years. Right now I'll be entering my second year of
Constitutional Law. My area of concentration includes the cases of Chief
Justice Taney (Dredd Scott) also Madison vs Marberry and judicial review
and
the Commerce Clause. Oh yes, I am also an exhibiting photographer with
fine
art exhibits at The George Eastman House and various unversities. Gotta
run
along now I am shooting skeet at NELLIS AFB early in the am and have to
hit
the sack.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Apart from that, what do you do?...:-))

Regards, BMC

ArtKramr wrote:

Subject: If you are looking for a fight...
From: David Lentz

"They also serve, who only stand and wait."

I don't think the company clerk equals a squadron commander. I don't think
that a mess hall orderly equals a Navigator. I don't think the corporal of
the guard equals a wing commander. I don't think that the morale, VD and
entertainment officer equals a bombardier. Are they all important? Sure. But
some are easily and instantly replaceable others are not. And some go out
knowng they may never come back, and others are comfortable on the surety of
the safety they enjoy. Your mileage may vary.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

I was thinking more of combat crew members. One BUFF crews get
sent to the UK to fly missions over Iraq. The other gets sent to
Guam to keep the North Koreans at bay. Need we distinguish
between their two levels of service? I say no.

David

Subject: If you are looking for a fight...
From: David Lentz
Date: 7/9/03 11:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:



ArtKramr wrote:

Subject: If you are looking for a fight...
From: David Lentz

"They also serve, who only stand and wait."

I don't think the company clerk equals a squadron commander. I don't think
that a mess hall orderly equals a Navigator. I don't think the corporal
of
the guard equals a wing commander. I don't think that the morale, VD and
entertainment officer equals a bombardier. Are they all important? Sure.
But
some are easily and instantly replaceable others are not. And some go out
knowng they may never come back, and others are comfortable on the surety
of
the safety they enjoy. Your mileage may vary.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

I was thinking more of combat crew members. One BUFF crews get
sent to the UK to fly missions over Iraq. The other gets sent to
Guam to keep the North Koreans at bay. Need we distinguish
between their two levels of service? I say no.

David


My message distinguished between skilled and unskilled men. Note that I didn't
eliminate aircrewis, ground crews bombsight techncians or any skilled
specialised personnell. My post was in reponse to a number of previous posts
by a few here who claimed that even the lowest contribute as much as anyone.
Not true I say. If you think it is true lets get the mess hall orderly to fly
lead on our next mission into enemy flak and fighters..

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

From: artkramr

Oh I forgot. I was the first editor of Sports Cars Ilustrated (now Car and
Driver) and was involved with Grand Prix racing, I knew Sterling Moss, Juan
Fangio and Mike Hawthorne before he wrapped himself around a tree. My one
regret is that I never met Tazio Nuvalari..

By any chance did you know
Robert Daley? He was the European editor of the NY Times and got interested in
GP racing in the 1950s. He was a photog, selling race photos freelance to a
number of publications, and did a number of stories for the Times on GP racing,
illustrating them with his own photos. He wrote two good books on auto racing
in the '50s and '60s that you may remember, "Cars at Speed" and "The Cruel
Sport."


Chris Mark