If you are looking for a fight...

Subject: If you are looking for a fight...
From: ost (Chris Mark)
Date: 7/9/03 1:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

From: artkramr

I never kew him but I may have a copy of Cars at Speed buried somewhere in
the
garage.Is that the exact title?

I'm pretty sure that is the exact title. It came out around 1960 as I
recall.
Quite a page turner.


Chris Mark



I sort of remember it having a yellow cover. I poked around looking for it and
sure enough I saw the yellow cover but it turned out to be Sports Cars in
Action by John R. Bond. I guess I don't have a copy of Sports Cars at Speed
after all. (BTW, whe I first wentot work on Ford, my first assignment was to
wirte Thunderbird advertising. That put me in contact with Lee Iaccocca. He is
a very impressive guy, Very, very smart. Best metal bender ever.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
snip
My message distinguished between skilled and unskilled men. Note that I
didn't
eliminate aircrewis, ground crews bombsight techncians or any skilled
specialised personnell. My post was in reponse to a number of previous
posts
by a few here who claimed that even the lowest contribute as much as
anyone.
Not true I say. If you think it is true lets get the mess hall orderly to
fly
lead on our next mission into enemy flak and fighters..

Or indeed, lets get the pilot to serve in the mess during non flying
weather.

Subject: If you are looking for a fight...
From: "Sunny"
Date: 7/9/03 3:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
snip
My message distinguished between skilled and unskilled men. Note that I
didn't
eliminate aircrewis, ground crews bombsight techncians or any skilled
specialised personnell. My post was in reponse to a number of previous
posts
by a few here who claimed that even the lowest contribute as much as
anyone.
Not true I say. If you think it is true lets get the mess hall orderly to
fly
lead on our next mission into enemy flak and fighters..

Or indeed, lets get the pilot to serve in the mess during non flying
weather.


As a bombardier I applaud your suggestion.
(grin)


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: If you are looking for a fight...
From: Mike18XX
Date: 7/9/03 11:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: If you are looking for a fight...
From: Mike18XX
Date: 7/8/03 9:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

"They also serve, who only stand and wait."

I don't think the company clerk equals a squadron commander. I don't
think
that a mess hall orderly equals a Navigator. I don't think the corporal
of
the guard equals a wing commander. I don't think that the morale, VD and
entertainment officer equals a bombardier. Are they all important? Sure.


Art, have you accomplished *anything* since the war? Just curious

I'll answer only becuse you asked politely.

Senior Vice President Creative Supervisor J.. Walter Thompson Company New
York. At the time the world's largest ad agency. Clients: Ford Motor
Company,
Eastman Kodak. Winner of 7 CLIOS for advertising excellance. Retired after
20
years service.

Lecturer New School for Social Research New York

Editor Modern Photography Magazine columnist and feature writer. Author of
column View From Kramer

Author of Techniques of Color Photography published by Unversal Books,
Library of Congress card # 57-10341

President Arthur Kramer Advertising NY. clients Nikon, AMF and Computer
Associates, 10 years


So how is it, that with all this individualist aspiration to
greatness, you succumb to the illusion that "service" is a higher
virtue, and waste your end days chiding the merits of men unlucky (!)
enough to find themselves in the pointy end of a big war?

"Service" is a *collectivist* ideal, Art.

--

Reply to sans two @@, or your reply won't reach me.

"An election is nothing more than an advance auction of stolen goods."
-- Ambrose Bierce








Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: If you are looking for a fight...
From: Mike18XX
Date: 7/9/03 11:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: If you are looking for a fight...
From: Mike18XX
Date: 7/8/03 9:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

"They also serve, who only stand and wait."

I don't think the company clerk equals a squadron commander. I don't
think
that a mess hall orderly equals a Navigator. I don't think the corporal
of
the guard equals a wing commander. I don't think that the morale, VD and
entertainment officer equals a bombardier. Are they all important? Sure.


Art, have you accomplished *anything* since the war? Just curious

I'll answer only becuse you asked politely.

Senior Vice President Creative Supervisor J.. Walter Thompson Company New
York. At the time the world's largest ad agency. Clients: Ford Motor
Company,
Eastman Kodak. Winner of 7 CLIOS for advertising excellance. Retired after
20
years service.

Lecturer New School for Social Research New York

Editor Modern Photography Magazine columnist and feature writer. Author of
column View From Kramer

Author of Techniques of Color Photography published by Unversal Books,
Library of Congress card # 57-10341

President Arthur Kramer Advertising NY. clients Nikon, AMF and Computer
Associates, 10 years


So how is it, that with all this individualist aspiration to
greatness, you succumb to the illusion that "service" is a higher
virtue, and waste your end days chiding the merits of men unlucky (!)
enough to find themselves in the pointy end of a big war?


Tell me about the pointy end of a big war. I always wondered what that would be
like.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

In article ,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: If you are looking for a fight...
From: Mike18XX
Date: 7/8/03 9:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

"They also serve, who only stand and wait."

I don't think the company clerk equals a squadron commander. I don't think
that a mess hall orderly equals a Navigator. I don't think the corporal of
the guard equals a wing commander. I don't think that the morale, VD and
entertainment officer equals a bombardier. Are they all important? Sure.


Art, have you accomplished *anything* since the war? Just curious

I'll answer only becuse you asked politely.

Senior Vice President Creative Supervisor J.. Walter Thompson Company New
York. At the time the world's largest ad agency. Clients: Ford Motor Company,
Eastman Kodak. Winner of 7 CLIOS for advertising excellance. Retired after 20
years service.

Lecturer New School for Social Research New York

Editor Modern Photography Magazine columnist and feature writer. Author of
column View From Kramer

Author of Techniques of Color Photography published by Unversal Books,
Library of Congress card # 57-10341

President Arthur Kramer Advertising NY. clients Nikon, AMF and Computer
Associates, 10 years


So how is it, that with all this individualist aspiration to
greatness, you succumb to the illusion that "service" is a higher
virtue, and waste your end days chiding the merits of men unlucky (!)
enough to find themselves in the pointy end of a big war?

"Service" is a *collectivist* ideal, Art.

--

Reply to sans two @@, or your reply won't reach me.

"An election is nothing more than an advance auction of stolen goods."
-- Ambrose Bierce

In article ,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

You have read more into my post than is there. Note that I never mentioned
those with high essental skills. I never rnentioned mechanics, Nor did I
mention bombsight technicians I compared those with low skills or no skills
easily replaced against those with essential skills


Compared to, say, those involved in the actual design and manufactureof
the airplanes you flew (or any other piece of equipment you ever
touched), bombardier is an relatively unskilled occupation.

IOW, your chest is puffed up in excess of pride warranted.

--

Reply to sans two @@, or your reply won't reach me.

"An election is nothing more than an advance auction of stolen goods."
-- Ambrose Bierce

In message , ArtKramr
writes
You have read more into my post than is there. Note that I never mentioned
those with high essental skills.

Where do weapon designers fit?

They don't get shot at (unless the enemy targets them or their place of
work), but they do provide the tools for pilots to use in turning
important targets into smoking craters.

No weapons - and no support to those you have, when they find problems
in combat - and the bombers might as well drop spitballs.

But then back when I was learning to be a soldier, the armourer who gave
me my rifle, magazines and ammunition was a Very Important Guy. He
wouldn't get shot at, while we would... but we depended on his skill to
ensure that our weapons would fire when we needed them.

'High essential skill' ends up meaning 'the mission is hosed if that
person fails', and that's a wide net.

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam

In message , ArtKramr
writes
My message distinguished between skilled and unskilled men. Note that I didn't
eliminate aircrewis, ground crews bombsight techncians or any skilled
specialised personnell. My post was in reponse to a number of previous posts
by a few here who claimed that even the lowest contribute as much as anyone.
Not true I say. If you think it is true lets get the mess hall orderly to fly
lead on our next mission into enemy flak and fighters..

Say rather, run an airbase with no messhall orderlies.

Fighting men need food and mail... how easily could you have done
without messhall orderlies and where would you have replaced them from?
How easily could aircrew have fed themselves and maintained their own
aircraft, and what would have happened to the sortie rate if the only
men on base were those who flew?


On one exercise, we were lucky enough to get a Catering Corps NCO
attached to our unit. We ate better in that week than any other time. We
wasted less time cooking and washing up than any other exercise (because
said NCO organised matters superbly). We freed up a lot of time for
proper military training, where we would otherwise have been cooking
one-man ration packs for ourselves.

Was that NCO a combat hero? No. Did he contribute to combat efficiency?
Hell, yes! Was he replaceable? No, except by someone who knew as much as
him about cooking quickly and superbly for groups (which none of us
could).

'The lowest' may not contribute 'as much'... but they still contribute,
and without them operations fail or slow to a crawl. If they weren't
needed, why are they there? If they _are_ needed, why denigrate them?



--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam

Subject: If you are looking for a fight...
From: "Paul J. Adam"
Date: 7/10/03 1:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

The lowest' may not contribute 'as much'... but they still contribute,
and without them operations fail or slow to a crawl. If they weren't
needed, why are they there? If they _are_ needed, why denigrate them?

I never denigrated them. That was your word. But I also refuse to raise them
to the level and importance of an in your face combat soldier with life and
death as a daily experience. Would you?If you would then it is you who are
denigrating the combat soldier. Try telling the veteran of the101st Airborne
who went through D-Day to the Bulge to the Elbe that he is better than a cook
who spent the war in Paris cooking and every night in Place Pigalle..In fact
that cook is a piece of crap compared to any one of my gunners. Don't tell me
they are equal.







Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer