Hold "as published"?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message ink.net...

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
. ..

Mine are integegral to the comm.


Not all of them are.


Nobody said it had to be universal. You asked "what bizarre failure causes
you to lose comm and transponder and still leaves you confident that your
other avionics (presumably navigational gear) active?" And the answer is
that most of us carry a GPS that is entirely independent of the aircraft
electrical system. I've been twice in two different aircraft that have had the electrical
systems go dead (and in the case of mine, we had several failures in a row).
One was even IFR. In one case I had a GPS (and no backup comm) in the
other case I had backup COMM (without NAV).

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
. ..

Nobody said it had to be universal. You asked "what bizarre failure
causes
you to lose comm and transponder and still leaves you confident that your
other avionics (presumably navigational gear) active?" And the answer is
that most of us carry a GPS that is entirely independent of the aircraft
electrical system. I've been twice in two different aircraft that have
had the electrical
systems go dead (and in the case of mine, we had several failures in a
row).
One was even IFR. In one case I had a GPS (and no backup comm) in the
other case I had backup COMM (without NAV).


Follow the damn thread. The question was directed at someone who
hypothesized losing comm radios and transponder but did not lose the nav
radios.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message ink.net...

Follow the damn thread. The question was directed at someone who
hypothesized losing comm radios and transponder but did not lose the nav
radios.

I am following the damn thread. Mr. Thomas was arguing that he would hold
until the ETA in a lost comm situation. I agree with you that it doesn't make
sense, but you then asked what sort of bizarre failure would (presumably,
I'm interpretting here because you were terse as usual as to what you were
specifically asking) let you navigate the hold once you've lost comm AND
transponder. As several pointed out, lots of us have handheld GPS's
either already out for situational awareness even if they don't use them for
primary nav, or onboard for backup (or other VFR use). It's also not unheard
of two lose complete electrical. It's happened to me in two different aircraft
(one an alternator mechanical failure, and the other an electrical circuitry failure).

So while it might make no operational sense to fly around in holds in a lost comm/transponder
situation, it's quite possible in a existant part of the GA fleet to do so.

Regardless, a failed electrical system constitutes an emergency in my book. If that happens, I want to be on the ground ASAP,
and certainly before my handheld's batteries die. Last thing I want to be doing is changing batteries while hand flying
(electrical system is gone, which also means no autopilot) in the clag. Using the emergency authority, I'm going to do whatever
it takes to get me on the ground asap without taking undue risks. I'd rather fill out the paperwork than have to have my hiers
fill it out.

Ron Natalie wrote:

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message ink.net...

Follow the damn thread. The question was directed at someone who
hypothesized losing comm radios and transponder but did not lose the nav
radios.

I am following the damn thread. Mr. Thomas was arguing that he would hold
until the ETA in a lost comm situation. I agree with you that it doesn't make
sense, but you then asked what sort of bizarre failure would (presumably,
I'm interpretting here because you were terse as usual as to what you were
specifically asking) let you navigate the hold once you've lost comm AND
transponder. As several pointed out, lots of us have handheld GPS's
either already out for situational awareness even if they don't use them for
primary nav, or onboard for backup (or other VFR use). It's also not unheard
of two lose complete electrical. It's happened to me in two different aircraft
(one an alternator mechanical failure, and the other an electrical circuitry failure).

So while it might make no operational sense to fly around in holds in a lost comm/transponder
situation, it's quite possible in a existant part of the GA fleet to do so.

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
. ..

I am following the damn thread. Mr. Thomas was arguing that he would hold
until the ETA in a lost comm situation. I agree with you that it doesn't
make sense, but you then asked what sort of bizarre failure would
(presumably,
I'm interpretting here because you were terse as usual as to what you were
specifically asking) let you navigate the hold once you've lost comm AND
transponder.


Here's the part of Mr. Thomas' message that you missed:


If you are in IMC and loose communication then one should start any
available instrument approach into the destination airport at the ETA within
the filed flight plan (ETD + Time Enroute). If you're early and its solid
IMC you hold. Simple as that.

The reason for this is Air Traffic is expecting you to arrive at the airport
at that ETA so they will have cleared the airspace in its entirity,
expecting you to start any published instrument approach into the airport.
This is particularly relevant if your transponder has also failed... how
are Air Traffic supposed to know where you are?




As several pointed out, lots of us have handheld GPS's
either already out for situational awareness even if they don't use them
for primary nav, or onboard for backup (or other VFR use). It's also not
unheard of two lose complete electrical. It's happened to me in two
different
aircraft (one an alternator mechanical failure, and the other an
electrical
circuitry failure).


Only a complete idiot would choose to hold until the ETA with a handheld GPS
after an electrical failure.

On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 23:22:36 GMT, Newps wrote:

If it ain't on the enroute chart or the chart
of the approach you are going to be doing it makes no sense to pull a
holding pattern out of your ass from some other approach.

C'mon. Don't hold back. How do you really feel about this?

Mark Kolber
APA/Denver, Colorado
www.midlifeflight.com
======================
email? Remove ".no.spam"

Ray Andraka writes:

Regardless, a failed electrical system constitutes an emergency in my book. If that happens, I want to be on the ground ASAP,
and certainly before my handheld's batteries die. Last thing I want to be doing is changing batteries while hand flying
(electrical system is gone, which also means no autopilot) in the clag. Using the emergency authority, I'm going to do whatever
it takes to get me on the ground asap without taking undue risks. I'd rather fill out the paperwork than have to have my hiers
fill it out.

No one is questioning your legal authority to do whatever. The
discussion has been about what action is less likely to have your
heirs fiilin out the paperwork.

Ari.

So shouldn't we try to help the complete idiot?
Or are you trying to improve the gene pool?
---JRC---

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message =
ink.net...
=20
=20
Only a complete idiot would choose to hold until the ETA with a =
handheld GPS
after an electrical failure.
=20

(K. Ari Krupnikov) wrote:
No one is questioning your legal authority to do whatever. The
discussion has been about what action is less likely to have your
heirs fiilin out the paperwork.

I figure there's two possible scenarios:

1) ATC knows where I am because my xponder is still working, or they are
tracking me with primary radar. In that case, they'll watch what I'm
doing and get everybody out of my way. Landing ASAP wins here.

2) ATC has lost track of where I am. In that case, there are two more
scenarios:

2A) They'll keep everybody the hell away from my destination airport
until I show up. Again, landing ASAP makes sense.

2B) They'll try to keep operating the airport as best as possible until
my ETA. In which case, my holding someplace in the vicinity is just
going to increase the time I'm in IMC with no separation. Once again,
landing ASAP seems to make sense.

All of this is really completely moot. All of this "holding until your
ETA" stuff assumes that somehow you'll get to your destination early.
Who are we kidding? When was the last time you ever got someplace ahead
of your ETA?

PS -- I've done scenario #1. I lost the ability to transmit, but could
still receive. As soon as I turned off my cleared route of flight and
started heading over to the ILS, ATC said, "You appear to be flying the
ILS-16, cleared ILS-16 approach, cleared to land".

"John R. Copeland" wrote in message
...

So shouldn't we try to help the complete idiot?


By doing what?