Question on ditching an Orion

On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:05:59 -0700, Tankfixer
wrote:

In article ,
says...

In message , Dave Kearton
writes
IMHO Lt Osborn made all the right decisions under very trying
circumstances. He kept the plane aloft, long enough for all the
sensitive gear to be destroyed, he KEPT HIS CREW ALIVE and what was
left of the plane was flown back to the US after the Chinese were done
with it.

If you think worst-case, ditching or baling out offers the Chinese a
nasty option. "We picked up nine of the crew, here they are. Mission
Supervisor Snuffy, who knows all about what the aircraft can do and what
its mission was? No, haven't found a trace of him, but we're still
searching..." And who's to know different? Once the crew lose sight of
each other, there's no way to know whether Supervisor Snuffy died during
the bailout, drowned in the ocean, is on a slow fishing boat with no
comms on his way to port, or is being forcibly persuaded to be detailed
and explicit about EP-3 capabilities in a Beijing basement.

Once the hard discs, memory cards, crypto modules, whatever have been
dealt with, the EP-3 is an elderly turboprop with a lot of radio
receivers feeding to dead systems. Not a lot of genuine intel value
the it's an ELINT platform, gee whiz, who knew?

The crew are the real prize which could compromise the capability:
keeping them together, alive, and getting them all home protects the
most important asset.

Who cares what the Chinese would see on the plane, they would get that
hardware via other means anyway.

A cynical part of me wonders how much of the hardware is "Made in China"
anyway. Radio receivers aren't exactly new or secret, it's what they
feed, what you can achieve with them and what you were sent to get that
matter.

I always wondered why once they had landed and all that a rather nasty
fire didn't break out onboard...

Maybe they discovered that destruct packages were more trouble than
they were worth. After they brought in the F-4Ds at Ubon in
May 1967 we had problems with the destruct packages in the APS-107
Omni Analyzer in one of the forward missile wells going off on the
ground. Interesting watching the reaction of people seeing smoke come
out of the forward bottom part of the aircraft. If I remember right
they were all out within a month...

They had a little box called the destruct power supply that went along
with the destruct package. We had them all sitting on a shelf awaiting
instruction on what to do with them. The canon plugs were oddball so
we couldn't get a tight fitting cap.
Maintenance supervisor came in one day and reached for an uncovered
plug, the cap had fallen off, and said you should have a cap on this.
He must have touched the plug and bam he was flying out the door of
the little storage room. Impressive. They actually store power as
advertised. He was not amused!

On Oct 28, 7:35*pm, BobP wrote:
On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:05:59 -0700, Tankfixer



wrote:
In article ,
says...

In message , Dave Kearton
writes
IMHO Lt Osborn made all the right decisions under very trying
circumstances. He kept the plane aloft, long enough for all the
sensitive gear to be destroyed, he KEPT HIS CREW ALIVE and what was
left of the plane was flown back to the US after the Chinese were done
with it.

If you think worst-case, ditching or baling out offers the Chinese a
nasty option. "We picked up nine of the crew, here they are. Mission
Supervisor Snuffy, who knows all about what the aircraft can do and what
its mission was? No, haven't found a trace of him, but we're still
searching..." And who's to know different? Once the crew lose sight of
each other, there's no way to know whether Supervisor Snuffy died during
the bailout, drowned in the ocean, is on a slow fishing boat with no
comms on his way to port, or is being forcibly persuaded to be detailed
and explicit about EP-3 capabilities in a Beijing basement.

Once the hard discs, memory cards, crypto modules, whatever have been
dealt with, the EP-3 is an elderly turboprop with a lot of radio
receivers feeding to dead systems. Not a lot of genuine intel value
the it's an ELINT platform, gee whiz, who knew?

The crew are the real prize which could compromise the capability:
keeping them together, alive, and getting them all home protects the
most important asset.

Who cares what the Chinese would see on the plane, they would get that
hardware via other means anyway.

A cynical part of me wonders how much of the hardware is "Made in China"
anyway. Radio receivers aren't exactly new or secret, it's what they
feed, what you can achieve with them and what you were sent to get that
matter.

I always wondered why once they had landed and all that a rather nasty
fire didn't break out onboard...

Maybe they discovered that destruct packages were more trouble than
they were worth. After they brought in the F-4Ds at Ubon in
May 1967 we had problems with the destruct packages in the APS-107
Omni Analyzer in one of the forward missile wells going off on the
ground. Interesting watching the reaction of people seeing smoke come
out of the forward bottom part of the aircraft. If I remember right
they were all out within a month...

They had a little box called the destruct power supply that went along
with the destruct package. We had them all sitting on a shelf awaiting
instruction on what to do with them. The canon plugs were oddball so
we couldn't get a tight fitting cap.
Maintenance supervisor came in one day and reached for an uncovered
plug, the cap had fallen off, and said you should have a cap on this.
He must have touched the plug and bam he was flying out the door of
the little storage room. Impressive. They actually store power as
advertised. He was not amused!

Generally best way to kill electronics is turn the cooling fans off.
Let all the electrons run around in circles and heat up.

On 29/10/10 00:05, Tankfixer wrote:
In ,
says...

In , Dave Kearton
writes
IMHO Lt Osborn made all the right decisions under very trying
circumstances. He kept the plane aloft, long enough for all the
sensitive gear to be destroyed, he KEPT HIS CREW ALIVE and what was
left of the plane was flown back to the US after the Chinese were done
with it.

If you think worst-case, ditching or baling out offers the Chinese a
nasty option. "We picked up nine of the crew, here they are. Mission
Supervisor Snuffy, who knows all about what the aircraft can do and what
its mission was? No, haven't found a trace of him, but we're still
searching..." And who's to know different? Once the crew lose sight of
each other, there's no way to know whether Supervisor Snuffy died during
the bailout, drowned in the ocean, is on a slow fishing boat with no
comms on his way to port, or is being forcibly persuaded to be detailed
and explicit about EP-3 capabilities in a Beijing basement.

Once the hard discs, memory cards, crypto modules, whatever have been
dealt with, the EP-3 is an elderly turboprop with a lot of radio
receivers feeding to dead systems. Not a lot of genuine intel value
the it's an ELINT platform, gee whiz, who knew?

The crew are the real prize which could compromise the capability:
keeping them together, alive, and getting them all home protects the
most important asset.

Who cares what the Chinese would see on the plane, they would get that
hardware via other means anyway.

A cynical part of me wonders how much of the hardware is "Made in China"
anyway. Radio receivers aren't exactly new or secret, it's what they
feed, what you can achieve with them and what you were sent to get that
matter.

I always wondered why once they had landed and all that a rather nasty
fire didn't break out onboard...

I read somewhere that the Chinese were unable to gain access for almost
an hour after the aircraft landed.

Oner is forced to assume that everything too big to dump out of the
aircraft was comprehensibly smashed before they opened the doors...


--
William Black

Free men have open minds
If you want loyalty, buy a dog...

In article ,
says...

On 29/10/10 00:05, Tankfixer wrote:
In ,
says...

In , Dave Kearton
writes
IMHO Lt Osborn made all the right decisions under very trying
circumstances. He kept the plane aloft, long enough for all the
sensitive gear to be destroyed, he KEPT HIS CREW ALIVE and what was
left of the plane was flown back to the US after the Chinese were done
with it.

If you think worst-case, ditching or baling out offers the Chinese a
nasty option. "We picked up nine of the crew, here they are. Mission
Supervisor Snuffy, who knows all about what the aircraft can do and what
its mission was? No, haven't found a trace of him, but we're still
searching..." And who's to know different? Once the crew lose sight of
each other, there's no way to know whether Supervisor Snuffy died during
the bailout, drowned in the ocean, is on a slow fishing boat with no
comms on his way to port, or is being forcibly persuaded to be detailed
and explicit about EP-3 capabilities in a Beijing basement.

Once the hard discs, memory cards, crypto modules, whatever have been
dealt with, the EP-3 is an elderly turboprop with a lot of radio
receivers feeding to dead systems. Not a lot of genuine intel value
the it's an ELINT platform, gee whiz, who knew?

The crew are the real prize which could compromise the capability:
keeping them together, alive, and getting them all home protects the
most important asset.

Who cares what the Chinese would see on the plane, they would get that
hardware via other means anyway.

A cynical part of me wonders how much of the hardware is "Made in China"
anyway. Radio receivers aren't exactly new or secret, it's what they
feed, what you can achieve with them and what you were sent to get that
matter.

I always wondered why once they had landed and all that a rather nasty
fire didn't break out onboard...

I read somewhere that the Chinese were unable to gain access for almost
an hour after the aircraft landed.

That's what I understand..
Seems like plenty of time to do some mischief...


Oner is forced to assume that everything too big to dump out of the
aircraft was comprehensibly smashed before they opened the doors...

"Paul J. Adam" wrote...
In message , Dave Kearton
writes
IMHO Lt Osborn made all the right decisions under very trying
circumstances. He kept the plane aloft, long enough for all the sensitive
gear to be destroyed,

Well, the last above line is the critical question!
Did you read the original cite
http://readersupportednews.org/off-s...-online-threat
The Online Threat
Should we be worried about a cyber war?
by Seymour M. Hersh
Read more
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...#ixzz13l1jc4sV

and find it unconvincing?

he KEPT HIS CREW ALIVE and what was left of the plane was flown back to
the US after the Chinese were done with it.

If you think worst-case, ditching or baling out offers the Chinese a nasty
option. "We picked up nine of the crew, here they are. Mission Supervisor
Snuffy, who knows all about what the aircraft can do and what its mission
was? No, haven't found a trace of him, but we're still searching..." And
who's to know different? Once the crew lose sight of each other, there's
no way to know whether Supervisor Snuffy died during the bailout, drowned
in the ocean, is on a slow fishing boat with no comms on his way to port,
or is being forcibly persuaded to be detailed and explicit about EP-3
capabilities in a Beijing basement.

Very interesting valid point of view, thanks.

I certainly admit that I do not know what 'equipment' and
software was destroyed and what was still discoverable.
I'm also not sure how knowledgable the crew was!

For example, in WWII it was policy that nobody who
had knowledge of important secrets should ever be allowed
in areas where it might be possible to be captured.

For example, anyone who even knew that we were able
to decipher the Japanese messages (MAGIC) was not to
be in harms way *.

The crew are the real prize which could compromise the capability:

Are you really sure about that?
Knowing how to use a computer program, does not
at all mean, you know the program. Or the equipment
that runs the program.


*
Leatherneck: Star-Crossed Translator
Story by Dick Camp
Second Lt Merle Ralph Cory was an expert cryptanalyst, who, ---- joined the
Corps and went to war. His comprehensive knowledge of the American
code-breaking successes caused many to second-guess the decision that
allowed him to risk capture by the Japanese.
((It was no "decision", he just slipped through the cracks.))
((he had gone on a 'patrol', and was killed))
Ralph Cory should never have been ---- at Guadalcanal. It was government
policy that anyone connected with MAGIC was expressly prohibited from combat
or duty that put them in close proximity to the enemy. He slipped through
the cracks ---. 2004 Leatherneck Magazine. All rights reserved.

On Oct 29, 7:58*am, "a425couple" wrote:
"Paul J. Adam" wrote...

In message , Dave Kearton
writes
IMHO Lt Osborn made all the right decisions under very trying
circumstances. He kept the plane aloft, long enough for all the sensitive
gear to be destroyed,

Well, the last above line is the critical question!
Did you read the original citehttp://readersupportednews.org/off-site-news-section/157-157/3730-the...
The Online Threat
Should we be worried about a cyber war?
by Seymour M. Hersh
Read morehttp://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/11/01/101101fa_fact_hersh?cur...

and find it unconvincing?

he KEPT HIS CREW ALIVE and what was left of the plane was flown back to
the US after the Chinese were done with it.

If you think worst-case, ditching or baling out offers the Chinese a nasty
option. "We picked up nine of the crew, here they are. Mission Supervisor
Snuffy, who knows all about what the aircraft can do and what its mission
was? No, haven't found a trace of him, but we're still searching..." And
who's to know different? Once the crew lose sight of each other, there's
no way to know whether Supervisor Snuffy died during the bailout, drowned
in the ocean, is on a slow fishing boat with no comms on his way to port,
or is being forcibly persuaded to be detailed and explicit about EP-3
capabilities in a Beijing basement.

Very interesting valid point of view, thanks.

I certainly admit that I do not know what 'equipment' and
software was destroyed and what was still discoverable.
I'm also not sure how knowledgable the crew was!

For example, in WWII it was policy that nobody who
had knowledge of important secrets should ever be allowed
in areas where it might be possible to be captured.

For example, anyone who even knew that we were able
to decipher the Japanese messages (MAGIC) was not to
be in harms way *.

The crew are the real prize which could compromise the capability:

Are you really sure about that?
Knowing how to use a computer program, does not
at all mean, you know the program. *Or the equipment
that runs the program.

*
Leatherneck: Star-Crossed Translator
Story by Dick Camp
Second Lt Merle Ralph Cory was an expert cryptanalyst, who, ---- *joined the
Corps and went to war. His comprehensive knowledge of the American
code-breaking successes caused many to second-guess the decision that
allowed him to risk capture by the Japanese.
((It was no "decision", he just slipped through the cracks.))
((he had gone on a 'patrol', and was killed))
Ralph Cory should never have been ---- at Guadalcanal. It was government
policy that anyone connected with MAGIC was expressly prohibited from combat
or duty that put them in close proximity to the enemy. He slipped through
the cracks ---. 2004 Leatherneck Magazine. All rights reserved.

Anything from Seymour Hersh is unconvincing. He's had an anti-military
bent ever since the '60s.

On Oct 29, 4:08*pm, Matt Wiser wrote:
On Oct 29, 7:58*am, "a425couple" wrote:



"Paul J. Adam" wrote...

In message , Dave Kearton
writes
IMHO Lt Osborn made all the right decisions under very trying
circumstances. He kept the plane aloft, long enough for all the sensitive
gear to be destroyed,

Well, the last above line is the critical question!
Did you read the original citehttp://readersupportednews.org/off-site-news-section/157-157/3730-the...
The Online Threat
Should we be worried about a cyber war?
by Seymour M. Hersh
Read morehttp://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/11/01/101101fa_fact_hersh?cur...

and find it unconvincing?

he KEPT HIS CREW ALIVE and what was left of the plane was flown back to
the US after the Chinese were done with it.

If you think worst-case, ditching or baling out offers the Chinese a nasty
option. "We picked up nine of the crew, here they are. Mission Supervisor
Snuffy, who knows all about what the aircraft can do and what its mission
was? No, haven't found a trace of him, but we're still searching..." And
who's to know different? Once the crew lose sight of each other, there's
no way to know whether Supervisor Snuffy died during the bailout, drowned
in the ocean, is on a slow fishing boat with no comms on his way to port,
or is being forcibly persuaded to be detailed and explicit about EP-3
capabilities in a Beijing basement.

Very interesting valid point of view, thanks.

I certainly admit that I do not know what 'equipment' and
software was destroyed and what was still discoverable.
I'm also not sure how knowledgable the crew was!

For example, in WWII it was policy that nobody who
had knowledge of important secrets should ever be allowed
in areas where it might be possible to be captured.

For example, anyone who even knew that we were able
to decipher the Japanese messages (MAGIC) was not to
be in harms way *.

The crew are the real prize which could compromise the capability:

Are you really sure about that?
Knowing how to use a computer program, does not
at all mean, you know the program. *Or the equipment
that runs the program.

*
Leatherneck: Star-Crossed Translator
Story by Dick Camp
Second Lt Merle Ralph Cory was an expert cryptanalyst, who, ---- *joined the
Corps and went to war. His comprehensive knowledge of the American
code-breaking successes caused many to second-guess the decision that
allowed him to risk capture by the Japanese.
((It was no "decision", he just slipped through the cracks.))
((he had gone on a 'patrol', and was killed))
Ralph Cory should never have been ---- at Guadalcanal. It was government
policy that anyone connected with MAGIC was expressly prohibited from combat
or duty that put them in close proximity to the enemy. He slipped through
the cracks ---. 2004 Leatherneck Magazine. All rights reserved.

Anything from Seymour Hersh is unconvincing. He's had an anti-military
bent ever since the '60s.

He may be anti military, but he does have his sources. Consider, if
the powers that be do something stupid and the peons at the bottom
don't like it, they do talk to reporters like a sieve. And DC is bad
about that.

I don't know why people with a clearance feel the need to leak. I
remember some GS whatevers, that really knew better shooting their
mouths off on stuff they should never had knowledge of. We're trying
to keep it secret and compartementalized, meanwhile some damned
bureaucrat is running his mouth all over the base. Go figure.

Which is why some people never told their wives anything. I'd never
tell mine anything. She's blabs. I get back in the real world, not
ever sure I'd tell her where I was.

In message , a425couple
writes
"Paul J. Adam" wrote...
If you think worst-case, ditching or baling out offers the Chinese a
nasty option. "We picked up nine of the crew, here they are. Mission
Supervisor Snuffy, who knows all about what the aircraft can do and
what its mission was? No, haven't found a trace of him, but we're
still searching..." And who's to know different? Once the crew lose
sight of each other, there's no way to know whether Supervisor Snuffy
died during the bailout, drowned in the ocean, is on a slow fishing
boat with no comms on his way to port, or is being forcibly persuaded
to be detailed and explicit about EP-3 capabilities in a Beijing basement.

Very interesting valid point of view, thanks.

I certainly admit that I do not know what 'equipment' and
software was destroyed and what was still discoverable.
I'm also not sure how knowledgable the crew was!

They for sure knew enough to deal with "Drop everything, we've got the
Premier's private phone!" or similar prioritisation: they'd know what
they could and could not get, what they were tasked to receive, what
they'd been ordered to be alert to "just in case", and so on.

For example, in WWII it was policy that nobody who
had knowledge of important secrets should ever be allowed
in areas where it might be possible to be captured.

Depends on the compartments. You have to hit the balance between
protecting your secrets, and achieving the mission.

The crew are the real prize which could compromise the capability:

Are you really sure about that?

Utterly certain? No.

Pretty confident? Yes.

Knowing how to use a computer program, does not
at all mean, you know the program. Or the equipment
that runs the program.

But you know what you're listening to, what can be cracked and
translated aboard, what has to be recorded for later analysis, what the
priorities and orders for the mission were, what the aircraft can and
can't achieve.

For a slightly forced armour analogy: the gunner doesn't know how the
code in the ballistic computer runs and couldn't rewrite it from memory.
But, with the computer properly trashed, the gunner is the person who
potentially could be made to say what he can and can't hit in various
circumstances, aided by whatever radar pixies dance inside the little
boxes. "How do we copy that?" is one risk: "Dear God, we never knew they
were that good" is another; and exposing "Is *that* the best they can
actually do?" a third.

--
He thinks too much, such men are dangerous.

Paul J. Adam

On Oct 29, 4:00*pm, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote:
In message , a425couple
writes



"Paul J. Adam" wrote...
If you think worst-case, ditching or baling out offers the Chinese a
nasty *option. "We picked up nine of the crew, here they are. Mission
Supervisor *Snuffy, who knows all about what the aircraft can do and
what its mission *was? No, haven't found a trace of him, but we're
still searching..." And *who's to know different? Once the crew lose
sight of each other, there's *no way to know whether Supervisor Snuffy
died during the bailout, drowned *in the ocean, is on a slow fishing
boat with no comms on his way to port, *or is being forcibly persuaded
to be detailed and explicit about EP-3 *capabilities in a Beijing basement.

Very interesting valid point of view, thanks.

I certainly admit that I do not know what 'equipment' and
software was destroyed and what was still discoverable.
I'm also not sure how knowledgable the crew was!

They for sure knew enough to deal with "Drop everything, we've got the
Premier's private phone!" or similar prioritisation: they'd know what
they could and could not get, what they were tasked to receive, what
they'd been ordered to be alert to "just in case", and so on.

For example, in WWII it was policy that nobody who
had knowledge of important secrets should ever be allowed
in areas where it might be possible to be captured.

Depends on the compartments. You have to hit the balance between
protecting your secrets, and achieving the mission.

The crew are the real prize which could compromise the capability:

Are you really sure about that?

Utterly certain? No.

Pretty confident? Yes.

Knowing how to use a computer program, does not
at all mean, you know the program. *Or the equipment
that runs the program.

But you know what you're listening to, what can be cracked and
translated aboard, what has to be recorded for later analysis, what the
priorities and orders for the mission were, what the aircraft can and
can't achieve.

For a slightly forced armour analogy: the gunner doesn't know how the
code in the ballistic computer runs and couldn't rewrite it from memory.
But, with the computer properly trashed, the gunner is the person who
potentially could be made to say what he can and can't hit in various
circumstances, aided by whatever radar pixies dance inside the little
boxes. "How do we copy that?" is one risk: "Dear God, we never knew they
were that good" is another; and exposing "Is *that* the best they can
actually do?" a third.

--
He thinks too much, such men are dangerous.

Paul J. Adam

Sometimes you keep things from people for this reason. Gunner knows he
can hit a target. Not told is limitations or that defensive systems
will keep things away. Or how the AWACS finds the targets for him.

Current example would be, get this package its a bomb. You don't need
to let out Saudis had an ex terrorist who went back then came in from
the cold and gave the plot up. Or how well the bomb was made. Now did
the bad guys know about the bomb, yeah. But going public let other bad
guys know if it was a decent bomb or not. That ex terrorist is not
'burned' as far as other terrorist groups are concerned.

Thing is, you can spin this stuff so much your head hurts.

I recall a secret missive a few decades ago, listing stuff that might
be compromised. One was something on a platform that was shot down in
Vietnam. Well, you either keep it secret, AND DO NOT USE IT, or you
put the secret do hickey out there and do use it and maybe kill
gomers. There is a risk using it against gomers, that gomers will find
it and usually send it out so somebody who does know about whatever it
was can figure things out. But keeping stuff in inventory sort of
negates the reason you built it.

Whining about it being lost pretty much is stupidity. But that's an
intell weenie for you.

In this case, burning key cards would be first priority. Stuff that
could compromise stuff elsewhere. Then you start going over the rest
of the paper stuff and maybe what you can whack inside the airframe.
Hopefully this has been thought out before hand.

In one case I worked on,it was paper and computer tapes. Set up a burn
pile, put the tapes on top and screw the environmental laws. Indians
are coming over the ridge, some things just aren't important. Rest was
take out your frustrations on pay, management, whatever. Get an axe
and have at it. Run stuff without cooling fans.

I mean the navlights.They look like navlights but maybe those are antennas housing of ECM/SIGINT/RWR systems...or maybe not.
This is my question.

I have read several times Yefim Gordons book on the Foxbat but coulndt find anything on this point....