Buy a damaged airplane

Almost bought an airplane. Talked to the guy over the phone. He's
brokering it for someone else. Asked him about damage history. No damage
history, he said.

Now, one thing I always do before I go to see an airplane is I check the
NTSB database. Actually, I do this before I call the owner so I can tell if
he's lying to me or not. The NTSB database showed no records for the plane.

So, I flew out (it is in Utah, I'm in Virginia) looked okay. Your normal
spam can. Not overly sweet, but better than average, I thought.

I'm kind of tired of looking so I thought, "what the heck, I'll buy it."
Made the broker an offer less than the asking price. The owner cam back
with a counter, and I agreed.

The broker sends me the contract, and it specifically stated that there are
no liens on the plane. But, always wanting to be safe rather than sorry, I
call AOPA to get a title report. Well, I decide to splurge and got the
whole shootnmatch, title search, NTSB report, AD listing, and SD report.

Bam! First salvo hits. The plane has a $40,000 lien on it. "Well," I
thought, "maybe they meant that they were going to pay it off with the
proceeds from the sale."

Whoa! Incoming! NTSB report comes back with that it had a mid-air
collision with a helicopter in 1996. Substantial damage. "Warning!
Warning, Will Robinson!"

Okay, now I'm ****ed. I'm ****ed that they told me there was no damage
history when a midair collision with substantial damage would definitely
qualify as a damage history to me. I'm ****ed that the on-line NTSB
database didn't show me this. I'm ****ed that I spent over $600 to go see
the plane. And I'm ****ed that I don't know who's lying to me, the broker
or the owner.

I called the broker. Told him about the lien and the accident. He was very
sympathetic. Claims he didn't know. Seems to be ****ed at the owner.
Claims that he looked through the logs and didn't see and major repairs.
(Interestingly enough, the AOPA search didn't turn up any 337's either.)
Before I could tell him that I want out, he offers to let me out.

So, now you know my story. Here's what my inquiring mind wants to know:

Up until the past decade or so, the common wisdom was that you shouldn't
consider an airplane that ever had an accident. Why bother? There are so
many non-damaged airplanes to be had. Recently, however, as the fleet ages,
the wisdom has since changed to, "well, if the damage isn't recent, it
should be ok." So what do you all think? Never consider a plane with
damage history? Consider it if the damage isn't recent? If so, what is
considered "recent?" How much would you deduct for an airplane with major
damage?

Doesn't surprise me at all. I once sold a plane I had (with damage
history), and years later saw it advertised as "No damage history" . This
was after I discussed the damage hx with the buyer (and took less $$ than I
would have with NDH).
" wrote in message
ink.net...
Almost bought an airplane. Talked to the guy over the phone. He's
brokering it for someone else. Asked him about damage history. No damage
history, he said.

Now, one thing I always do before I go to see an airplane is I check the
NTSB database. Actually, I do this before I call the owner so I can tell
if
he's lying to me or not. The NTSB database showed no records for the
plane.

So, I flew out (it is in Utah, I'm in Virginia) looked okay. Your normal
spam can. Not overly sweet, but better than average, I thought.

I'm kind of tired of looking so I thought, "what the heck, I'll buy it."
Made the broker an offer less than the asking price. The owner cam back
with a counter, and I agreed.

The broker sends me the contract, and it specifically stated that there
are
no liens on the plane. But, always wanting to be safe rather than sorry,
I
call AOPA to get a title report. Well, I decide to splurge and got the
whole shootnmatch, title search, NTSB report, AD listing, and SD report.

Bam! First salvo hits. The plane has a $40,000 lien on it. "Well," I
thought, "maybe they meant that they were going to pay it off with the
proceeds from the sale."

Whoa! Incoming! NTSB report comes back with that it had a mid-air
collision with a helicopter in 1996. Substantial damage. "Warning!
Warning, Will Robinson!"

Okay, now I'm ****ed. I'm ****ed that they told me there was no damage
history when a midair collision with substantial damage would definitely
qualify as a damage history to me. I'm ****ed that the on-line NTSB
database didn't show me this. I'm ****ed that I spent over $600 to go see
the plane. And I'm ****ed that I don't know who's lying to me, the broker
or the owner.

I called the broker. Told him about the lien and the accident. He was
very
sympathetic. Claims he didn't know. Seems to be ****ed at the owner.
Claims that he looked through the logs and didn't see and major repairs.
(Interestingly enough, the AOPA search didn't turn up any 337's either.)
Before I could tell him that I want out, he offers to let me out.

So, now you know my story. Here's what my inquiring mind wants to know:

Up until the past decade or so, the common wisdom was that you shouldn't
consider an airplane that ever had an accident. Why bother? There are so
many non-damaged airplanes to be had. Recently, however, as the fleet
ages,
the wisdom has since changed to, "well, if the damage isn't recent, it
should be ok." So what do you all think? Never consider a plane with
damage history? Consider it if the damage isn't recent? If so, what is
considered "recent?" How much would you deduct for an airplane with major
damage?

I just bought a plane with damage history.
One accident was in the 1970's.
Then a wingtip ripped off pulling out of a hangar in 2000.
All repairs were fixed.
I don't even think twice about it.
Plane flies great and is beautiful.

My advice...
If you can't tell the difference, the plane flies straight and true and is
mechanically sound, then don't sweat it.
Especially if your going to fly it for a while, and not just turn around and
sell it.

Adam
N7966L
Beech Super III

It all depends on what kind of damage and who repaired it. Remember a
bunch of guys built it, so a bunch of guys can theoretically make it
as good as new, BUT there must be some kind if references for the shop
and his work. For instance, Glen Biggs in Oklahoma can put a Bonanza
back together better than the factory and at a higher price, too!

I'd be interested to know the broker. What it that armstrong guy that
we've all come to know? Real nice of him to "let you out". You
should have sued his ass, not that he has anything to pay you. Sounds
like a typical scumbag to me.


On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 01:12:13 GMT, "
wrote:

Almost bought an airplane. Talked to the guy over the phone. He's
brokering it for someone else. Asked him about damage history. No damage
history, he said.

Now, one thing I always do before I go to see an airplane is I check the
NTSB database. Actually, I do this before I call the owner so I can tell if
he's lying to me or not. The NTSB database showed no records for the plane.

So, I flew out (it is in Utah, I'm in Virginia) looked okay. Your normal
spam can. Not overly sweet, but better than average, I thought.

I'm kind of tired of looking so I thought, "what the heck, I'll buy it."
Made the broker an offer less than the asking price. The owner cam back
with a counter, and I agreed.

The broker sends me the contract, and it specifically stated that there are
no liens on the plane. But, always wanting to be safe rather than sorry, I
call AOPA to get a title report. Well, I decide to splurge and got the
whole shootnmatch, title search, NTSB report, AD listing, and SD report.

Bam! First salvo hits. The plane has a $40,000 lien on it. "Well," I
thought, "maybe they meant that they were going to pay it off with the
proceeds from the sale."

Whoa! Incoming! NTSB report comes back with that it had a mid-air
collision with a helicopter in 1996. Substantial damage. "Warning!
Warning, Will Robinson!"

Okay, now I'm ****ed. I'm ****ed that they told me there was no damage
history when a midair collision with substantial damage would definitely
qualify as a damage history to me. I'm ****ed that the on-line NTSB
database didn't show me this. I'm ****ed that I spent over $600 to go see
the plane. And I'm ****ed that I don't know who's lying to me, the broker
or the owner.

I called the broker. Told him about the lien and the accident. He was very
sympathetic. Claims he didn't know. Seems to be ****ed at the owner.
Claims that he looked through the logs and didn't see and major repairs.
(Interestingly enough, the AOPA search didn't turn up any 337's either.)
Before I could tell him that I want out, he offers to let me out.

So, now you know my story. Here's what my inquiring mind wants to know:

Up until the past decade or so, the common wisdom was that you shouldn't
consider an airplane that ever had an accident. Why bother? There are so
many non-damaged airplanes to be had. Recently, however, as the fleet ages,
the wisdom has since changed to, "well, if the damage isn't recent, it
should be ok." So what do you all think? Never consider a plane with
damage history? Consider it if the damage isn't recent? If so, what is
considered "recent?" How much would you deduct for an airplane with major
damage?

I had a similar story (Piper Warrior):
A previous owner experienced oil failure in the late 80's. Engine seized,
had to put down in a parking lot. On rollout, hit a car with one wing.

Wing was replaced, engine was replaced. Didn't bother me one bit. My
pre-purchase A&P (also a broker, and personal friend of my dad) told me that
as long as the repair was fixed, it really didn't effect the value - as long
as it was mechanically sound, flew normal, had all the correct paperwork,
etc.

Also, my dad owns a Piper Comanche. A previous owner had installed an
automotive-grade oil hose, and we experienced and oil failure (ironic, huh?)
and had to put down in an oat's field. Engine was basically shot, and we
bent up a few wing skins and broke off one of the mains as we slid sideways
down the field.

Engine was replaced, wing skins replaced, repainted, etc. Plane looks
fabulous, flies great, has all the paperwork, etc. and should command full
value (accident was in 1975.)

Personally, I wouldn't sweat it, as long as you fully understand the extent
of the damage, and the related repair - especially if the damage occurred
some time ago ("time will tell".)


"The Weiss Family" wrote in message
...
I just bought a plane with damage history.
One accident was in the 1970's.
Then a wingtip ripped off pulling out of a hangar in 2000.
All repairs were fixed.
I don't even think twice about it.
Plane flies great and is beautiful.

My advice...
If you can't tell the difference, the plane flies straight and true and is
mechanically sound, then don't sweat it.
Especially if your going to fly it for a while, and not just turn around
and sell it.

Adam
N7966L
Beech Super III

Tom Jackson wrote:

I had a similar story (Piper Warrior):
A previous owner experienced oil failure in the late 80's. Engine seized,
had to put down in a parking lot. On rollout, hit a car with one wing.

Wing was replaced, engine was replaced. Didn't bother me one bit. My
pre-purchase A&P (also a broker, and personal friend of my dad) told me that
as long as the repair was fixed, it really didn't effect the value - as long
as it was mechanically sound, flew normal, had all the correct paperwork,
etc.

It doesn't affect the airplane, but it does affect the value. Most
appraisers deduct something for airplanes with damage history,
regardless of the quality of the repair.

Matt

Okay, now I'm ****ed. I'm ****ed that they told me there was no damage
history when a midair collision with substantial damage would definitely
qualify as a damage history to me. I'm ****ed that the on-line NTSB
database didn't show me this. I'm ****ed that I spent over $600 to go see
the plane. And I'm ****ed that I don't know who's lying to me, the broker
or the owner.

The NTSB database isn't designed to be some sort of pre-sale reference.
Not all "incidents" are requierd to be reported there, and unless you're
very careful, you might even miss accidents that were reported.

Did you look at the log books? This isn't fool proof but is more likely
to give hints when "repairs" are made than looking around for accident
reports.

My aircraft has been twice damaged SINCE I OWNED IT. One when a renter
taxied it into another aircraft and another when the engine failed on me
during flight. Neither one was required to be reported to the NTSB.

"NDH" is VASTLY overrated. A documented fully repaired damage is much
better than undocumented painted over damage.

A thorugh search of the logs and a careful inspection of the aircraft is
more important.

Many people will not even consider a plane unless its NDH.

This means it will take longer to sell, and bring a lower price.

If the logs do not show the damage, then don't buy that plane. What else is
not in the logs?

If the logs do show the damage, then your broker is suspect for incompetence
at best. Its his job as broker to pour over the logs and figure out what
every 337 means. Otherwise, he isn't really adding any value to you at all.

The best kind of damage history is something that happened several hundred
hours ago and can easily be checked to see if the repair is still good. A
wheels up that happened long ago is a non issue to me, but not every buyer.

I would likely walk from this one, but I wouldn't be a NDH or nothing buyer.
I might change my mind if I knew more of the facts about the particular
plane.



" wrote in message
ink.net...
Almost bought an airplane. Talked to the guy over the phone. He's
brokering it for someone else. Asked him about damage history. No damage
history, he said.

Now, one thing I always do before I go to see an airplane is I check the
NTSB database. Actually, I do this before I call the owner so I can tell
if
he's lying to me or not. The NTSB database showed no records for the
plane.

So, I flew out (it is in Utah, I'm in Virginia) looked okay. Your normal
spam can. Not overly sweet, but better than average, I thought.

I'm kind of tired of looking so I thought, "what the heck, I'll buy it."
Made the broker an offer less than the asking price. The owner cam back
with a counter, and I agreed.

The broker sends me the contract, and it specifically stated that there
are
no liens on the plane. But, always wanting to be safe rather than sorry,
I
call AOPA to get a title report. Well, I decide to splurge and got the
whole shootnmatch, title search, NTSB report, AD listing, and SD report.

Bam! First salvo hits. The plane has a $40,000 lien on it. "Well," I
thought, "maybe they meant that they were going to pay it off with the
proceeds from the sale."

Whoa! Incoming! NTSB report comes back with that it had a mid-air
collision with a helicopter in 1996. Substantial damage. "Warning!
Warning, Will Robinson!"

Okay, now I'm ****ed. I'm ****ed that they told me there was no damage
history when a midair collision with substantial damage would definitely
qualify as a damage history to me. I'm ****ed that the on-line NTSB
database didn't show me this. I'm ****ed that I spent over $600 to go see
the plane. And I'm ****ed that I don't know who's lying to me, the broker
or the owner.

I called the broker. Told him about the lien and the accident. He was
very
sympathetic. Claims he didn't know. Seems to be ****ed at the owner.
Claims that he looked through the logs and didn't see and major repairs.
(Interestingly enough, the AOPA search didn't turn up any 337's either.)
Before I could tell him that I want out, he offers to let me out.

So, now you know my story. Here's what my inquiring mind wants to know:

Up until the past decade or so, the common wisdom was that you shouldn't
consider an airplane that ever had an accident. Why bother? There are so
many non-damaged airplanes to be had. Recently, however, as the fleet
ages,
the wisdom has since changed to, "well, if the damage isn't recent, it
should be ok." So what do you all think? Never consider a plane with
damage history? Consider it if the damage isn't recent? If so, what is
considered "recent?" How much would you deduct for an airplane with major
damage?

Hi Tom, thanks for your information. What would you consider "long ago?"
This accident happened in 1996, so the damage is only 8 years old.


"Tom Jackson" wrote in message
news:Ms5jd.303124$wV.41147@attbi_s54...
I had a similar story (Piper Warrior):
A previous owner experienced oil failure in the late 80's. Engine seized,
had to put down in a parking lot. On rollout, hit a car with one wing.

Wing was replaced, engine was replaced. Didn't bother me one bit. My
pre-purchase A&P (also a broker, and personal friend of my dad) told me
that
as long as the repair was fixed, it really didn't effect the value - as
long
as it was mechanically sound, flew normal, had all the correct paperwork,
etc.

Also, my dad owns a Piper Comanche. A previous owner had installed an
automotive-grade oil hose, and we experienced and oil failure (ironic,
huh?)
and had to put down in an oat's field. Engine was basically shot, and we
bent up a few wing skins and broke off one of the mains as we slid
sideways
down the field.

Engine was replaced, wing skins replaced, repainted, etc. Plane looks
fabulous, flies great, has all the paperwork, etc. and should command full
value (accident was in 1975.)

Personally, I wouldn't sweat it, as long as you fully understand the
extent
of the damage, and the related repair - especially if the damage occurred
some time ago ("time will tell".)


"The Weiss Family" wrote in message
...
I just bought a plane with damage history.
One accident was in the 1970's.
Then a wingtip ripped off pulling out of a hangar in 2000.
All repairs were fixed.
I don't even think twice about it.
Plane flies great and is beautiful.

My advice...
If you can't tell the difference, the plane flies straight and true and
is
mechanically sound, then don't sweat it.
Especially if your going to fly it for a while, and not just turn around
and sell it.

Adam
N7966L
Beech Super III

Hi Ron, thanks for the information.

I agree that a log search is the best way to know what is going on but with
the fleet pushing 35 to 40 years of age, you could take a weekend to read
through it all. The broker FAXed me the pages that talked about the repair.
(Once I told him what dates to look for.) One could really read it over and
not know what they were reading. The statement was something like "replaced
left flap with serviceable used part IAW Cessna service guide."

So, I agree with you that some of the blame falls on me for not reading the
logs thoroughly but again, that could be 3 days just for the airframe.

By the way, should something like this require a 337?


"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...


Okay, now I'm ****ed. I'm ****ed that they told me there was no damage
history when a midair collision with substantial damage would definitely
qualify as a damage history to me. I'm ****ed that the on-line NTSB
database didn't show me this. I'm ****ed that I spent over $600 to go
see
the plane. And I'm ****ed that I don't know who's lying to me, the
broker
or the owner.

The NTSB database isn't designed to be some sort of pre-sale reference.
Not all "incidents" are requierd to be reported there, and unless you're
very careful, you might even miss accidents that were reported.

Did you look at the log books? This isn't fool proof but is more likely
to give hints when "repairs" are made than looking around for accident
reports.

My aircraft has been twice damaged SINCE I OWNED IT. One when a renter
taxied it into another aircraft and another when the engine failed on me
during flight. Neither one was required to be reported to the NTSB.

"NDH" is VASTLY overrated. A documented fully repaired damage is much
better than undocumented painted over damage.

A thorugh search of the logs and a careful inspection of the aircraft is
more important.