Buy a damaged airplane

I agree with you about known damage. I also agree with you that the broker
may be a little incompetent. I kind of picked that up even before this all
came down.

The logs do show the damage. I had the broker FAX me the pages from the
dates after the accident. All it says is that they replaced the flap.

From the NTSB report, the helicopter's rotor hit the flap of the airplane.
This happened in 1996. Do you think that 8 years is enough time for any
latent problems to be found?


"Dude" wrote in message
...
Many people will not even consider a plane unless its NDH.

This means it will take longer to sell, and bring a lower price.

If the logs do not show the damage, then don't buy that plane. What else
is
not in the logs?

If the logs do show the damage, then your broker is suspect for
incompetence
at best. Its his job as broker to pour over the logs and figure out what
every 337 means. Otherwise, he isn't really adding any value to you at
all.

The best kind of damage history is something that happened several hundred
hours ago and can easily be checked to see if the repair is still good. A
wheels up that happened long ago is a non issue to me, but not every
buyer.

I would likely walk from this one, but I wouldn't be a NDH or nothing
buyer.
I might change my mind if I knew more of the facts about the particular
plane.



" wrote in message
ink.net...
Almost bought an airplane. Talked to the guy over the phone. He's
brokering it for someone else. Asked him about damage history. No
damage
history, he said.

Now, one thing I always do before I go to see an airplane is I check the
NTSB database. Actually, I do this before I call the owner so I can
tell
if
he's lying to me or not. The NTSB database showed no records for the
plane.

So, I flew out (it is in Utah, I'm in Virginia) looked okay. Your
normal
spam can. Not overly sweet, but better than average, I thought.

I'm kind of tired of looking so I thought, "what the heck, I'll buy it."
Made the broker an offer less than the asking price. The owner cam back
with a counter, and I agreed.

The broker sends me the contract, and it specifically stated that there
are
no liens on the plane. But, always wanting to be safe rather than
sorry,
I
call AOPA to get a title report. Well, I decide to splurge and got the
whole shootnmatch, title search, NTSB report, AD listing, and SD report.

Bam! First salvo hits. The plane has a $40,000 lien on it. "Well," I
thought, "maybe they meant that they were going to pay it off with the
proceeds from the sale."

Whoa! Incoming! NTSB report comes back with that it had a mid-air
collision with a helicopter in 1996. Substantial damage. "Warning!
Warning, Will Robinson!"

Okay, now I'm ****ed. I'm ****ed that they told me there was no damage
history when a midair collision with substantial damage would definitely
qualify as a damage history to me. I'm ****ed that the on-line NTSB
database didn't show me this. I'm ****ed that I spent over $600 to go
see
the plane. And I'm ****ed that I don't know who's lying to me, the
broker
or the owner.

I called the broker. Told him about the lien and the accident. He was
very
sympathetic. Claims he didn't know. Seems to be ****ed at the owner.
Claims that he looked through the logs and didn't see and major repairs.
(Interestingly enough, the AOPA search didn't turn up any 337's either.)
Before I could tell him that I want out, he offers to let me out.

So, now you know my story. Here's what my inquiring mind wants to know:

Up until the past decade or so, the common wisdom was that you shouldn't
consider an airplane that ever had an accident. Why bother? There are
so
many non-damaged airplanes to be had. Recently, however, as the fleet
ages,
the wisdom has since changed to, "well, if the damage isn't recent, it
should be ok." So what do you all think? Never consider a plane with
damage history? Consider it if the damage isn't recent? If so, what is
considered "recent?" How much would you deduct for an airplane with
major
damage?

Eight years is certainly long enough. Until recently, most airplanes were
basically hand built so a repair should be every bit as good as the
original. In fact, it is not unlikely that the repair is better quality
than the original. You also have to consider what type of aircraft it is.
It is reasonable to expect no damage history on a 1970 Bonaza but if you
find a 1970 Super Cub being sold with wheels, floats, skis and all the
Alaska mods it is exceedingly unlikely that it has no damage history.

Mike
MU-2


" wrote in message
ink.net...
I agree with you about known damage. I also agree with you that the broker
may be a little incompetent. I kind of picked that up even before this
all
came down.

The logs do show the damage. I had the broker FAX me the pages from the
dates after the accident. All it says is that they replaced the flap.

From the NTSB report, the helicopter's rotor hit the flap of the airplane.
This happened in 1996. Do you think that 8 years is enough time for any
latent problems to be found?


"Dude" wrote in message
...
Many people will not even consider a plane unless its NDH.

This means it will take longer to sell, and bring a lower price.

If the logs do not show the damage, then don't buy that plane. What else
is
not in the logs?

If the logs do show the damage, then your broker is suspect for
incompetence
at best. Its his job as broker to pour over the logs and figure out what
every 337 means. Otherwise, he isn't really adding any value to you at
all.

The best kind of damage history is something that happened several
hundred
hours ago and can easily be checked to see if the repair is still good.
A
wheels up that happened long ago is a non issue to me, but not every
buyer.

I would likely walk from this one, but I wouldn't be a NDH or nothing
buyer.
I might change my mind if I knew more of the facts about the particular
plane.



" wrote in message
ink.net...
Almost bought an airplane. Talked to the guy over the phone. He's
brokering it for someone else. Asked him about damage history. No
damage
history, he said.

Now, one thing I always do before I go to see an airplane is I check
the
NTSB database. Actually, I do this before I call the owner so I can
tell
if
he's lying to me or not. The NTSB database showed no records for the
plane.

So, I flew out (it is in Utah, I'm in Virginia) looked okay. Your
normal
spam can. Not overly sweet, but better than average, I thought.

I'm kind of tired of looking so I thought, "what the heck, I'll buy
it."
Made the broker an offer less than the asking price. The owner cam
back
with a counter, and I agreed.

The broker sends me the contract, and it specifically stated that there
are
no liens on the plane. But, always wanting to be safe rather than
sorry,
I
call AOPA to get a title report. Well, I decide to splurge and got the
whole shootnmatch, title search, NTSB report, AD listing, and SD
report.

Bam! First salvo hits. The plane has a $40,000 lien on it. "Well," I
thought, "maybe they meant that they were going to pay it off with the
proceeds from the sale."

Whoa! Incoming! NTSB report comes back with that it had a mid-air
collision with a helicopter in 1996. Substantial damage. "Warning!
Warning, Will Robinson!"

Okay, now I'm ****ed. I'm ****ed that they told me there was no damage
history when a midair collision with substantial damage would
definitely
qualify as a damage history to me. I'm ****ed that the on-line NTSB
database didn't show me this. I'm ****ed that I spent over $600 to go
see
the plane. And I'm ****ed that I don't know who's lying to me, the
broker
or the owner.

I called the broker. Told him about the lien and the accident. He was
very
sympathetic. Claims he didn't know. Seems to be ****ed at the owner.
Claims that he looked through the logs and didn't see and major
repairs.
(Interestingly enough, the AOPA search didn't turn up any 337's
either.)
Before I could tell him that I want out, he offers to let me out.

So, now you know my story. Here's what my inquiring mind wants to
know:

Up until the past decade or so, the common wisdom was that you
shouldn't
consider an airplane that ever had an accident. Why bother? There are
so
many non-damaged airplanes to be had. Recently, however, as the fleet
ages,
the wisdom has since changed to, "well, if the damage isn't recent, it
should be ok." So what do you all think? Never consider a plane with
damage history? Consider it if the damage isn't recent? If so, what
is
considered "recent?" How much would you deduct for an airplane with
major
damage?

Because most buyers will try to avoid it... because subsequent buyers
will try to avoid it. Believe me... I've been there.

I agree that a well repaired airplane should sell for full value... but
the market just doesn't behave that way.

If you are sure you will own the plane in question in perpetuity... no
problem. Otherwise, buy right so you can sell right.

Rich

Matt Whiting wrote:
ically sound, flew normal, had all the
correct paperwork, etc.


It doesn't affect the airplane, but it does affect the value. Most
appraisers deduct something for airplanes with damage history,
regardless of the quality of the repair.

Matt

Dude wrote:

If the logs do show the damage, then your broker is suspect for incompetence
at best. Its his job as broker to pour over the logs and figure out what
every 337 means. Otherwise, he isn't really adding any value to you at all.

The broker most likely is representing the seller. I've never seen a broker
even open the log books. The onus is on the purchaser and his representatives.

wrote:

I agree that a log search is the best way to know what is going on but with
the fleet pushing 35 to 40 years of age, you could take a weekend to read
through it all.

Yep, and well worth it if you're going to plunk down $$$ on an aircraft.
I had 45 years worth of reading to do on 27K.

By the way, should something like this require a 337?

No. Part 43 Appendix A describes major repair. It primarily
covers "fixing" structural compoents where the repair involves
something that is different than the way it manufactured (like I
put a doubler on a broken spar or something). Replacing a flap
isn't a major repair, you're just replacing one approved part with
another one.

Yes, if it has flown a reasonable amount over that time, the repair should
be considered to be just fine.

I don't think most people would worry too much about this kind of repair.
The real worries are repairs to the hull and wings that may have left
weakness or corrosion in the structure. I suppose some of the force of the
incident could have gone into the wing, but it would likely show up on the
skin ( I am no AP, so I would definitely get someone in the know to look to
see any possible affects of that incident on the rest of the wing).



" wrote in message
ink.net...
I agree with you about known damage. I also agree with you that the broker
may be a little incompetent. I kind of picked that up even before this
all
came down.

The logs do show the damage. I had the broker FAX me the pages from the
dates after the accident. All it says is that they replaced the flap.

From the NTSB report, the helicopter's rotor hit the flap of the airplane.
This happened in 1996. Do you think that 8 years is enough time for any
latent problems to be found?


"Dude" wrote in message
...
Many people will not even consider a plane unless its NDH.

This means it will take longer to sell, and bring a lower price.

If the logs do not show the damage, then don't buy that plane. What else
is
not in the logs?

If the logs do show the damage, then your broker is suspect for
incompetence
at best. Its his job as broker to pour over the logs and figure out what
every 337 means. Otherwise, he isn't really adding any value to you at
all.

The best kind of damage history is something that happened several
hundred
hours ago and can easily be checked to see if the repair is still good.
A
wheels up that happened long ago is a non issue to me, but not every
buyer.

I would likely walk from this one, but I wouldn't be a NDH or nothing
buyer.
I might change my mind if I knew more of the facts about the particular
plane.



" wrote in message
ink.net...
Almost bought an airplane. Talked to the guy over the phone. He's
brokering it for someone else. Asked him about damage history. No
damage
history, he said.

Now, one thing I always do before I go to see an airplane is I check
the
NTSB database. Actually, I do this before I call the owner so I can
tell
if
he's lying to me or not. The NTSB database showed no records for the
plane.

So, I flew out (it is in Utah, I'm in Virginia) looked okay. Your
normal
spam can. Not overly sweet, but better than average, I thought.

I'm kind of tired of looking so I thought, "what the heck, I'll buy
it."
Made the broker an offer less than the asking price. The owner cam
back
with a counter, and I agreed.

The broker sends me the contract, and it specifically stated that there
are
no liens on the plane. But, always wanting to be safe rather than
sorry,
I
call AOPA to get a title report. Well, I decide to splurge and got the
whole shootnmatch, title search, NTSB report, AD listing, and SD
report.

Bam! First salvo hits. The plane has a $40,000 lien on it. "Well," I
thought, "maybe they meant that they were going to pay it off with the
proceeds from the sale."

Whoa! Incoming! NTSB report comes back with that it had a mid-air
collision with a helicopter in 1996. Substantial damage. "Warning!
Warning, Will Robinson!"

Okay, now I'm ****ed. I'm ****ed that they told me there was no damage
history when a midair collision with substantial damage would
definitely
qualify as a damage history to me. I'm ****ed that the on-line NTSB
database didn't show me this. I'm ****ed that I spent over $600 to go
see
the plane. And I'm ****ed that I don't know who's lying to me, the
broker
or the owner.

I called the broker. Told him about the lien and the accident. He was
very
sympathetic. Claims he didn't know. Seems to be ****ed at the owner.
Claims that he looked through the logs and didn't see and major
repairs.
(Interestingly enough, the AOPA search didn't turn up any 337's
either.)
Before I could tell him that I want out, he offers to let me out.

So, now you know my story. Here's what my inquiring mind wants to
know:

Up until the past decade or so, the common wisdom was that you
shouldn't
consider an airplane that ever had an accident. Why bother? There are
so
many non-damaged airplanes to be had. Recently, however, as the fleet
ages,
the wisdom has since changed to, "well, if the damage isn't recent, it
should be ok." So what do you all think? Never consider a plane with
damage history? Consider it if the damage isn't recent? If so, what
is
considered "recent?" How much would you deduct for an airplane with
major
damage?

Well, I guess you get what you pay for. If a broker is not representing the
plane, but merely taking phone calls, then he isn't worth much money to
either party. I would not consider working with a broker like this to buy
because all he is doing is sheilding you from information you could be using
to help you make a decision.



"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...
Dude wrote:

If the logs do show the damage, then your broker is suspect for
incompetence at best. Its his job as broker to pour over the logs and
figure out what every 337 means. Otherwise, he isn't really adding any
value to you at all.

The broker most likely is representing the seller. I've never seen a
broker
even open the log books. The onus is on the purchaser and his
representatives.

Beware the scam-brokers that hide the N number and Serial Number's of the
aircraft untill they get your money "deposit" by law they dont have to give
you your money back after they give you the aircraft info as that is whay
you are buying. Resources: Washington State Bar Association, Better Business
Bureau.

When I was looking for an airplane I lost funds to one of these scam-brokers
that said he would find me what I want for XXX amount when he asked for more
money and produced no results except for junk with liens and hidden damage
history I took the rest of my money and ran. you got lucky that you were
able to get out.

I would buy a properly repaired airplane after I had a title search done and
a pre buy inspection and extra time allotted for inspecting the repair and
things attached to that repair + the log books. If deemed airworthy time for
a test flight and not just around the pattern plot out a nice cross county
flight and test all the systems after about 3 hours 1 way check the
airplane's oil usage out. Call you mechanic have him/her be there when you
return to give the engine a through run through. Grab a sample of oil and
send it in to be tested wait for results don't ever trust the owner they are
just trying to sell an airplane and the brokers are just trying to make
their commission.

If a seller, broker or owner dose not allow you to pre buy the aircraft or
is not willing to wait of an oil check or title search thank them for their
time and walk. Listen to your gut if the owner give a lame answer for a
simple question or evades the question that a pilot/owner should know then
walk. If they don't let you test fly the aircraft at your expense with them
along then walk as they may be hiding something.

Don't scrape the bottom of the barrel leave some for someone that can handle
the bottom of the barrel.


" wrote in message
ink.net...
Almost bought an airplane. Talked to the guy over the phone. He's
brokering it for someone else. Asked him about damage history. No damage
history, he said.

Now, one thing I always do before I go to see an airplane is I check the
NTSB database. Actually, I do this before I call the owner so I can tell
if
he's lying to me or not. The NTSB database showed no records for the
plane.

So, I flew out (it is in Utah, I'm in Virginia) looked okay. Your normal
spam can. Not overly sweet, but better than average, I thought.

I'm kind of tired of looking so I thought, "what the heck, I'll buy it."
Made the broker an offer less than the asking price. The owner cam back
with a counter, and I agreed.

The broker sends me the contract, and it specifically stated that there
are
no liens on the plane. But, always wanting to be safe rather than sorry,
I
call AOPA to get a title report. Well, I decide to splurge and got the
whole shootnmatch, title search, NTSB report, AD listing, and SD report.

Bam! First salvo hits. The plane has a $40,000 lien on it. "Well," I
thought, "maybe they meant that they were going to pay it off with the
proceeds from the sale."

Whoa! Incoming! NTSB report comes back with that it had a mid-air
collision with a helicopter in 1996. Substantial damage. "Warning!
Warning, Will Robinson!"

Okay, now I'm ****ed. I'm ****ed that they told me there was no damage
history when a midair collision with substantial damage would definitely
qualify as a damage history to me. I'm ****ed that the on-line NTSB
database didn't show me this. I'm ****ed that I spent over $600 to go see
the plane. And I'm ****ed that I don't know who's lying to me, the broker
or the owner.

I called the broker. Told him about the lien and the accident. He was
very
sympathetic. Claims he didn't know. Seems to be ****ed at the owner.
Claims that he looked through the logs and didn't see and major repairs.
(Interestingly enough, the AOPA search didn't turn up any 337's either.)
Before I could tell him that I want out, he offers to let me out.

So, now you know my story. Here's what my inquiring mind wants to know:

Up until the past decade or so, the common wisdom was that you shouldn't
consider an airplane that ever had an accident. Why bother? There are so
many non-damaged airplanes to be had. Recently, however, as the fleet
ages,
the wisdom has since changed to, "well, if the damage isn't recent, it
should be ok." So what do you all think? Never consider a plane with
damage history? Consider it if the damage isn't recent? If so, what is
considered "recent?" How much would you deduct for an airplane with major
damage?

I think it shouldn't be a problem if the damage is properly repaired and
documented.

I looked at a plane about a year ago that had a couple accidents in the
NTSB database showing "substantial" damage. There was nothing in the
logs .. and no 337s showing it had been repaired. So who knows how
it was fixed.

The seller had said "no damage history". Needless to say I walked away
from that one.




" wrote in message
ink.net...
Almost bought an airplane. Talked to the guy over the phone. He's
brokering it for someone else. Asked him about damage history. No damage
history, he said.

Now, one thing I always do before I go to see an airplane is I check the
NTSB database. Actually, I do this before I call the owner so I can tell
if
he's lying to me or not. The NTSB database showed no records for the
plane.

So, I flew out (it is in Utah, I'm in Virginia) looked okay. Your normal
spam can. Not overly sweet, but better than average, I thought.

I'm kind of tired of looking so I thought, "what the heck, I'll buy it."
Made the broker an offer less than the asking price. The owner cam back
with a counter, and I agreed.

The broker sends me the contract, and it specifically stated that there
are
no liens on the plane. But, always wanting to be safe rather than sorry,
I
call AOPA to get a title report. Well, I decide to splurge and got the
whole shootnmatch, title search, NTSB report, AD listing, and SD report.

Bam! First salvo hits. The plane has a $40,000 lien on it. "Well," I
thought, "maybe they meant that they were going to pay it off with the
proceeds from the sale."

Whoa! Incoming! NTSB report comes back with that it had a mid-air
collision with a helicopter in 1996. Substantial damage. "Warning!
Warning, Will Robinson!"

Okay, now I'm ****ed. I'm ****ed that they told me there was no damage
history when a midair collision with substantial damage would definitely
qualify as a damage history to me. I'm ****ed that the on-line NTSB
database didn't show me this. I'm ****ed that I spent over $600 to go see
the plane. And I'm ****ed that I don't know who's lying to me, the broker
or the owner.

I called the broker. Told him about the lien and the accident. He was
very
sympathetic. Claims he didn't know. Seems to be ****ed at the owner.
Claims that he looked through the logs and didn't see and major repairs.
(Interestingly enough, the AOPA search didn't turn up any 337's either.)
Before I could tell him that I want out, he offers to let me out.

So, now you know my story. Here's what my inquiring mind wants to know:

Up until the past decade or so, the common wisdom was that you shouldn't
consider an airplane that ever had an accident. Why bother? There are so
many non-damaged airplanes to be had. Recently, however, as the fleet
ages,
the wisdom has since changed to, "well, if the damage isn't recent, it
should be ok." So what do you all think? Never consider a plane with
damage history? Consider it if the damage isn't recent? If so, what is
considered "recent?" How much would you deduct for an airplane with major
damage?

Thanks, Ron. I was hoping someone would point out that a 337 is not
required every repair. The only way to sniff out all damage history is to
read the maintenance records. Replacing parts like wing tips and landing
gear are not normal maintenance items, so "there's your sign."

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...
wrote:

I agree that a log search is the best way to know what is going on but
with
the fleet pushing 35 to 40 years of age, you could take a weekend to read
through it all.

Yep, and well worth it if you're going to plunk down $$$ on an aircraft.
I had 45 years worth of reading to do on 27K.

By the way, should something like this require a 337?

No. Part 43 Appendix A describes major repair. It primarily
covers "fixing" structural compoents where the repair involves
something that is different than the way it manufactured (like I
put a doubler on a broken spar or something). Replacing a flap
isn't a major repair, you're just replacing one approved part with
another one.