Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard

This post is for Art Kramer and his ilk who should ask questions instead of
pontificating on subjects they are totally ignorant of.


I have just about had it with the bull**** spread by people ignorant of the
National Guard and its roles during the 60's through the 80's. My
experience with the military included almost six years on active duty that
ended in 1972. I served in Vietnam for two tours as an officer. In 1974 I
joined the Alabama Army National Guard (ALARNG). In 1975 I became a full
time training officer for a signal battalion.

The national guard soldier is expected to serve for one weekend a month
averaging two days. For some special training you may have a 3 day drill
but the usual drill is for two days. Those two days drills often involve
overnight training hundreds of miles from their home armory. My unit would
convoy to the training site, conduct signal and tactical training and convoy
back to the home armory. All from 6 AM Saturday morning to 5 PM Sunday
afternoon. During that time we fed the troops, often tactically, performed
the required maintenance and the NCO's and officers conducted appropriate
training and made appropriate plans for the next drills.

Many units, to include the unit I was assigned, were in the affiliated
program, whereby you trained with and deployed with active duty units. My
unit was affiliated with signal battalions at Ft Bragg, NC, and would have
deployed at that time with the Ft Bragg corps.

Our performance varied in comparison with the active forces. Our convoy
skills were head and shoulders above theirs due to necessity. Our ability
to setup and take down signal sites was also better. They had more
experience in long term operations as the longest we could operate at a time
was during Annual Training of 14 - 17 days. Their equipment was normally
more recent but more worn as it was used much more. Special training was
set up some weekends when cadres of NG forces would travel to Ft Bragg to
participate in their exercises. On more than one occasion I stepped into
the shoes of my active counter part on their exercises.

So many national guard members made sacrifices in their civilian lives to
serve and be ready to defend the country. Employers were not always happy
to hear they could not work on a given weekend due to a drill or had to take
their two weeks off during the summer. There were and are laws to protect
jobs but they were not enforced often and how you could you prove the reason
you did not get a promotion was due to your guard membership.

In addition to the above requirements the national guard soldiers had to
attend schools at the appropriate levels to attain promotion in much the
same manner as their active counter parts. An officer had to have the
Advanced course to make Major and if he had not completed the Command and
General Staff College he better be almost through if he was up for
Lieutenant Colonel. We had to pass state promotion boards and the results
had to be approved by Congress for Major and above. The qualification
levels were the same as for the active duty troops. I was an officer and
know more about the officer requirements but the NCO's had to have their NCO
academies at the right points as their active duty brothers.

In addition to their military requirements national guard troops were
subject to state orders to provide relief and order during state
emergencies. With hurricane in the south and ice storms in the north the
Alabama Guardsman often was called to duty at times when his family needed
him but he heeded the call for the benefit of the state.

Now all during the above the guard unit was inspected much the same as the
active forces. We had Annual General Inspections (AGI) where everything was
gone over with a fine tooth comb. Everything from records to the equipment
and the armory were checked.

Now Art, were there people in the guard who got in through favors? I am
sure there were just as favors are pulled daily in any activity that
government is involved in. Just as some people in WWII got false deferments
or pulled strings to get plush assignments. Were there cowards in the NG?
I am sure. We tried to run them off. But you know what, there were cowards
in the Army Air Corps in WWII, but we don't paint all the vets with that
broad brush.

Art, it is time you admitted you know nothing about the current military or
National Guard and ask instead of castigating and revealing your vast
ignorance. You would a much better chance of being taken seriously if you
acted like you were actually learning once in a while.

I retired after a 26 year career with the active army, the National Guard,
and the Army Reserve. I remain just as proud of my time with the Guard and
Reserves as with the Army in Vietnam. But I try to live in the current age
and keep learning rather than rest on my laurels. You could try the same.

Subject: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
From: "Rick Folkers"

Now Art, were there people in the guard who got in through favors? I am
sure there were just as favors are pulled daily in any activity that
government is involved in. Just as some people in WWII got false deferments
or pulled strings to get plush assignments. Were there cowards in the NG?
I am sure. We tried to run them off. But you know what, there were cowards
in the Army Air Corps in WWII, but we don't paint all the vets with that
broad brush.

Art, it is time you admitted you know nothing about the current military or
National Guard and ask instead of castigating and revealing your vast
ignorance. You would a much better chance of being taken seriously if you
acted like you were actually learning once in a while.

I retired after a 26 year career with the active army, the National Guard,
and the Army Reserve. I remain just as proud of my time with the Guard and
Reserves as with the Army in Vietnam. But I try to live in the current age
and keep learning rather than rest on my laurels. You could try the same.



I was originally talking bout WW II and many high sbchool kids who went for
the guard and Reserves to delay serving their country. My words have since
been twisted and distorted out of all recognition. If in 1943 you went into the
guard you were held in contempt as someone who wanted to avoid serving his
country, And that is the way it was back then and nothing said here can change
that. I never said that once in the guard the guard did not serve well. My
grievance was only with those who hid in the guard hoping they would never be
called. The jokes on them.




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
From: "Rick Folkers"

Now Art, were there people in the guard who got in through favors? I am
sure there were just as favors are pulled daily in any activity that
government is involved in. Just as some people in WWII got false
deferments
or pulled strings to get plush assignments. Were there cowards in the
NG?
I am sure. We tried to run them off. But you know what, there were
cowards
in the Army Air Corps in WWII, but we don't paint all the vets with that
broad brush.

Art, it is time you admitted you know nothing about the current military
or
National Guard and ask instead of castigating and revealing your vast
ignorance. You would a much better chance of being taken seriously if
you
acted like you were actually learning once in a while.

I retired after a 26 year career with the active army, the National
Guard,
and the Army Reserve. I remain just as proud of my time with the Guard
and
Reserves as with the Army in Vietnam. But I try to live in the current
age
and keep learning rather than rest on my laurels. You could try the
same.



I was originally talking bout WW II and many high sbchool kids who went
for
the guard and Reserves to delay serving their country.

What utter bull****. One more time, Kramer--the Guard was mobilized in its
entirety by federal order over a YEAR before Pearl Harbor. There was no
local Guard unit for them to join after mobilization was completed in early
spring 1941--all of the units were on active duty, where they would remain
through 1945. Meaning those Guardsmen served one hell of a lot longer than
you did. None of the above is "opinion"--it is all cold, hard facts,
something you obviously are completely ignorant of.

My words have since
been twisted and distorted out of all recognition.

Bull**** again. Your words have been fed back at you verbatim--you were
wrong when you claimed, and I quote (from 21 FEB, AGAIN):

"Back then the reserve and the guard were pathetic jokes and laughing stocks
for all of us. As I have said before, if you want to go to war, then go to
war and don't hand us this reserve or National Guard stuff. Tell a member of
the 101st fighting for his life at Bastogne what a great job the reserve is
doing to defend our country sitting in the USA nice and safe while he may
not live to see the end of this day."

Those Guardsmen were hardly "pathetic jokes and laughing stocks"; when they
were mobilized en mass they immediately doubled the size of the active Army
on duty in 1940. Few of those Guardsmen were "nice and safe" while Bastogne
was going on--in fact, it was a National Guard outfit (120th Inf Rgt, 30th
Inf Div) that your sister B-26 unit (322nd BG, IIRC) mistakenly bombed
during the Battle of the Bulge, killing a number of them at Malmedy. Other
Guardsmen were (hopefully) finishing their fourth year in confinement as
POW's of the Japanese--"hopefully" because a lot of them did not survive the
Bataan Death March. They were in their third year of that unimaginable
misery while you were still debating with yourself about asking Sally Ann
out to the school dance. More Guardsmen served as spearhead assault units in
various amphibious operations, including your personal favorite, Normandy,
where the 116th Inf Rgt of the Virginia National Guard made the town of
Bedford famous for suffering the loss of almost an entire generation of her
young men during a few short hours on that sixth day of June in 1944.

If in 1943 you went into the
guard you were held in contempt as someone who wanted to avoid serving
his
country,

Complete and utter bull**** again. THERE WAS NO NATIONAL GUARD FOR THEM TO
JOIN IN 1943! It had been serving in federal service for over two years at
that point. Do you just make this crap up as you go along?

And that is the way it was back then and nothing said here can change
that.

Especially the (gasp!) facts, right? You are utterly clueless, and even more
amazing, you refuse to check into the actual history of the US mobilization
effort, where you would find that yes indeed, all of the Guard units were
long gone from Fort Livingroom long before 1943.

I never said that once in the guard the guard did not serve well. My
grievance was only with those who hid in the guard hoping they would never
be
called. The jokes on them.

You are an idiot. Hopefully those poor misguided soul who have been clinging
to the idea that you might have some sort of historical value are reading
this latest evidence of your complete and utter lack of touch with reality
(either then or now) and joining the evidently growing number of folks who
have figured you out for what you really are.

Brooks




Arthur Kramer

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
From: "Rick Folkers"

Now Art, were there people in the guard who got in through favors? I
am
sure there were just as favors are pulled daily in any activity that
government is involved in. Just as some people in WWII got false
deferments
or pulled strings to get plush assignments. Were there cowards in the
NG?
I am sure. We tried to run them off. But you know what, there were
cowards
in the Army Air Corps in WWII, but we don't paint all the vets with
that
broad brush.

Art, it is time you admitted you know nothing about the current
military
or
National Guard and ask instead of castigating and revealing your vast
ignorance. You would a much better chance of being taken seriously if
you
acted like you were actually learning once in a while.

I retired after a 26 year career with the active army, the National
Guard,
and the Army Reserve. I remain just as proud of my time with the Guard
and
Reserves as with the Army in Vietnam. But I try to live in the current
age
and keep learning rather than rest on my laurels. You could try the
same.



I was originally talking bout WW II and many high sbchool kids who
went
for
the guard and Reserves to delay serving their country.

What utter bull****. One more time, Kramer--the Guard was mobilized in its
entirety by federal order over a YEAR before Pearl Harbor. There was no
local Guard unit for them to join after mobilization was completed in
early
spring 1941--all of the units were on active duty, where they would remain
through 1945. Meaning those Guardsmen served one hell of a lot longer than
you did. None of the above is "opinion"--it is all cold, hard facts,
something you obviously are completely ignorant of.

My words have since
been twisted and distorted out of all recognition.

Bull**** again. Your words have been fed back at you verbatim--you were
wrong when you claimed, and I quote (from 21 FEB, AGAIN):

"Back then the reserve and the guard were pathetic jokes and laughing
stocks
for all of us. As I have said before, if you want to go to war, then go to
war and don't hand us this reserve or National Guard stuff. Tell a member
of
the 101st fighting for his life at Bastogne what a great job the reserve
is
doing to defend our country sitting in the USA nice and safe while he may
not live to see the end of this day."

Those Guardsmen were hardly "pathetic jokes and laughing stocks"; when
they
were mobilized en mass they immediately doubled the size of the active
Army
on duty in 1940. Few of those Guardsmen were "nice and safe" while
Bastogne
was going on--in fact, it was a National Guard outfit (120th Inf Rgt, 30th
Inf Div) that your sister B-26 unit (322nd BG, IIRC) mistakenly bombed
during the Battle of the Bulge, killing a number of them at Malmedy. Other
Guardsmen were (hopefully) finishing their fourth year in confinement as
POW's of the Japanese--"hopefully" because a lot of them did not survive
the
Bataan Death March. They were in their third year of that unimaginable
misery while you were still debating with yourself about asking Sally Ann
out to the school dance. More Guardsmen served as spearhead assault units
in
various amphibious operations, including your personal favorite, Normandy,
where the 116th Inf Rgt of the Virginia National Guard made the town of
Bedford famous for suffering the loss of almost an entire generation of
her
young men during a few short hours on that sixth day of June in 1944.

My father had joined the Oklahoma National Guard and was a rilfeman in hq hq
company 101st Airborne 506, downtown Bastogne.

Subject: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 2/28/04 4:30 PM Pacific Standard Time

his latest evidence of your complete and utter lack of touch with reality
(either then or now) and joining the evidently growing number of folks who
have figured you out for what you really are.

Brooks

You are a lying piece of crap.

PLONK
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Brooks

You are a lying piece of crap.

PLONK
Arthur Kramer

Way to go Art, keep it up and you'll only have to deal with
Autocollimater...uhh....never mind....


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

On 2/28/04 5:53 PM, in article ,
"ArtKramr" wrote:

I was originally talking bout WW II and many high school kids who went for
the guard and Reserves to delay serving their country. My words have since
been twisted and distorted out of all recognition.

Does that include your reference to Colin Powel: not a very good basis for
argument concerning events 30 years earlier, is it?


Jack
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Making the French unhappy is
just a pleasant side benefit
of doing the right thing"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Jack" wrote in message
...
On 2/28/04 5:53 PM, in article
,
"ArtKramr" wrote:

I was originally talking bout WW II and many high school kids who went
for
the guard and Reserves to delay serving their country. My words have
since
been twisted and distorted out of all recognition.

Does that include your reference to Colin Powel: not a very good basis for
argument concerning events 30 years earlier, is it?

Since the Guard was Federalized in 1940 when Art would have been 15, it is
just another false memory. Much like Billy Blythe remembering Black church
burnings in his youth in Arkansas.

Just politics, nothing personal.

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 2/28/04 4:30 PM Pacific Standard Time

his latest evidence of your complete and utter lack of touch with reality
(either then or now) and joining the evidently growing number of folks
who
have figured you out for what you really are.

Brooks

You are a lying piece of crap.

Feel free to specifically point out any lies in the post that you so handily
snipped, especially those related to the dissection of your own quoted
words. Reviewing it again, the only lies I see are the ones you keep
muttering:

Art: "I was originally talking bout WW II and many high sbchool kids who
went for the guard and Reserves to delay serving their country."

Well, we know that is not true, as the Guard was mobilized for federal
service at the same time that Congress authorized conscription.

Art: "If in 1943 you went into the guard you were held in contempt as
someone who wanted to avoid serving his country, And that is the way it was
back then and nothing said here can change that."

Another falsehood from Art, as it was impossible to get into the National
Guard in 1943, being as all of the units had been federalized for about two
plus years by 1943.

Art: "I never said that once in the guard the guard did not serve well."

Yes, you did: "Back then the reserve and the guard were pathetic jokes and
laughing stocks for all of us. As I have said before, if you want to go to
war, then go to war and don't hand us this reserve or National Guard stuff.
Tell a member of the 101st fighting for his life at Bastogne what a great
job the reserve is doing to defend our country sitting in the USA nice and
safe while he may not live to see the end of this day." Chalk up another
bald-faced lie to Kramer.

Art: "My grievance was only with those who hid in the guard hoping they
would never be called."

Strange at best, since the entire Guard had been serving on active duty well
before Art got his "call up" on his eighteenth birthday...which brings into
question one of Art's more cherished claims, that he was a VOLUNTEER, by
gosh! Gee, if he got called up for military service as he has stated, how
does that equate to him having "volunteered for service"?!

And last but not least...

Art: "The jokes on them."

I doubt those Guardsmen who were enduring the likes of Bloody Buna, Bataan,
Guadalcanal, Sicily, etc., before you even were "called up", not to mention
those who went on to fight hard-fought battles on the beach at Normandy,
during the Normandy breakout, throughout France, the Huertgen Forest, the
Ardennes, etc., were much of a joking matter. The only jokes that have
emerged from this discussion turned out to be your trashed reputation and
lack of integrity.

Brooks





PLONK
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

In article ,
on 28 Feb 2004 23:53:02 GMT,
ArtKramr attempted to say .....

Subject: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
From: "Rick Folkers"

Now Art, were there people in the guard who got in through favors? I am
sure there were just as favors are pulled daily in any activity that
government is involved in. Just as some people in WWII got false deferments
or pulled strings to get plush assignments. Were there cowards in the NG?
I am sure. We tried to run them off. But you know what, there were cowards
in the Army Air Corps in WWII, but we don't paint all the vets with that
broad brush.

Art, it is time you admitted you know nothing about the current military or
National Guard and ask instead of castigating and revealing your vast
ignorance. You would a much better chance of being taken seriously if you
acted like you were actually learning once in a while.

I retired after a 26 year career with the active army, the National Guard,
and the Army Reserve. I remain just as proud of my time with the Guard and
Reserves as with the Army in Vietnam. But I try to live in the current age
and keep learning rather than rest on my laurels. You could try the same.



I was originally talking bout WW II and many high sbchool kids who went for
the guard and Reserves to delay serving their country. My words have since
been twisted and distorted out of all recognition. If in 1943 you went into the
guard you were held in contempt as someone who wanted to avoid serving his
country, And that is the way it was back then and nothing said here can change
that. I never said that once in the guard the guard did not serve well. My
grievance was only with those who hid in the guard hoping they would never be
called. The jokes on them.

Art, you are a simpering fool. There was no National Guard in 1943. They
had all been called to active duty in 1940 to early 1941.

There were some state guard forces for those not able to qualify for
active service. But they were not subject to any mobilization.

The joke IS you Art, give it up.



--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.