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#22
May 23rd 04, 10:43 AM
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I dunno Juvat, you tell me, what is their next strike?
It's not worth even arguing anymore, people are gonna do what they want because they have inflated ego's and because they can. And most people that have never been on the pointy end will ever understand. I give up, keep posting MiLCOMS in Florida and y'aLL keep supporting him, have fun. On Sat, 22 May 2004 15:37:37 GMT, Robey Price wrote: After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, miso confessed the following: Security is the responsibility of the originator of the message. "Shack!" Blaming a civilian with a scanner for intercepting your message is about as responsible as telling the old lie that the dog ate your homework. To piggyback "miso" further... It's part of that old, "Loose lips sink ships" mantra...which "fudog50" seems to be addressing when he asked: I guess it is ok for civilians to violate "OPSEC' during time of war? Clearly the answer is an emphatic, "Well, duh!" Allan's posting is after the fact...historical if you will. IOW he's not giving out real-time or advance intelligence. Under your concern for OPSEC how much time must pass before it would be permissible for Allan to post? Again "fudog50" lamented: (whether you agree or not, we are at war, where is your patriotism? Why make it any easier for any potential enemy?) Wrapping the flag AKA patriotism around your argument kinda gives you some moral high ground. By your use of patriotism, folks opposed to aspects of the Patriot Act or GWB/Cheney/Rove/Rumsfeld are un-patriotic. Wouldn't it be horrible if the enemy used even a miniscule part of your military A/C comms to add into a tactical strike? Awww come on now "fudog50" now you're just pandering. Put your thinking cap on and contemplate probable targets and tactics. Think those islamist ****s are going to go for a "fat juicy" civilian airliner or an agile, mobile, and hostile military target? Juvat 
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#23
May 23rd 04, 11:30 AM
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Here is one for starters, I'm sure you will get all defensive about
it, I don't make the guidelines, but here are some of them. http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/a021202b.html On 18 May 2004 03:17:15 GMT, (AllanStern) wrote: Monday, 17 May 2004 Interesting comms today: some concerning one of the nation's newest acft, the F/A-22 now at Tyndall AFB, and some about the good old days when "The Real Stuff" was going on at Cape Canaveral, and I was there. AIR TRANSPORT 400: DC-8, Little Rock (USAF Contractor) 8:58am: Lands Patrick. Later departs to Antigua, then to Ascension - both USAF Eastern Test Range downrange sites. [133.75] N4667B: CE-208B Cessna Caravan, US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air Wing, Patrick AFB. 9:17am: Departs Patrick. 2:50pm: Lands Patrick. [133.75] HAWK 85; F/A-18D, Beaufort MCAS VMFA(AW)-533 9:44am: Transitions area to Mayport NAF [269.3, 273.55] MAKOs 11, 12: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS 10:01am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range. [292.2, 138.125] SHARK 21: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS 10:25am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range. 10:45am: RTBs to HST. [292.2, 307.1, 139.8] AX 186: C-130T, Andrews AFB VR-53 "Capitol Express" 10:31am: Area transition. Might be C-40 acft replacing VR-53's C-130Ts, as noted by Sandy in Colo recently. [133.475, 132.15] BRONCO 01: OV-10D, US State Dept US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air Wing, Patrick AFB. 10:45am: Departs Patrick (flight of 2). 4:12pm: Lands Patrick. [133.75] AKULA 31: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS 10:52am: Single ship, arrives at Avon Park Bombing Range. [292.2, 307.1] JOLLYs 11, 12: HH-60G Pave Hawk Helos, Patrick AFB 920RQW 11:51am: Departs Patrick; approaches at KMLB, Patrick. [269.375] PJ 610: P-3C, Whidbey Island NAS VP-69 "Totems" Sqdn 12:10pm: Lands Patrick. [269.375] HQ 475: SH-60B, Mayport NAF HSL-46 "Grandmasters" Sqdn 12:30pm: Area transition. [132.65] VDA 4813: AN-124, Volga Dnepr (Contractor) 2:30pm: Departs NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Facility. This huge Ukrainian transport had RONd previous night after bringing large aerospace cargo. Note RON at SLF instead of CCAFS whose runway is closed for construction. [128.55, 132.65, 124.8, 133.3] VAMPIRE 72: F/A-22, Tyndall AFB 325FW 43FS 2:45pm: Touch and go at Patrick on apparent fam flight through area; remains at low altitude (and therefor VHF freqs). This is my first snag of comms from an F/A-22. Was a bit too low and fast for me to get into my camera window. Tyndall is USAF's only F/A-22 schoolhouse; so I expect to see more of them. Made a wonderful shallow swooping pass over my house off of Patrick's Rnwy 20 before heading south along the coast. I LIKE this plane. Looks like it loves to roll. [133.75, 1312.65, 132.25] SHARKs 21, 22, 23: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS 3:00pm: Strafing at Avon Park Bombing Range. [292.2, 285.725, 139.8] MAKO 11 Flight: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS 3:00pm: Hitting tgts at Avon Park. 3:04pm: MAKO 11 has to RTB HST with problem. 3:40pm: Balance of flight RTBs. [292.2, 285.725, 307.1, 269.3, 239.25, 370.9, 322.5] SHARK 89: C-130. 3:39pm: Area transition, to waypoint Nassau. [119.825] LIMA LIMA 38: P-3C Jacksonville NAS VP-30 "Pro's Nest" Sqdn. 3:45pm: Area transition. [133.475] ZANTOP 757: Zantop Intl (Charter), Ypsilanti MI 5:27pm: Area transition. Those of us who were here in the 1960s Hey-days of the space program, remember the ever-present Zantop acft at Patrick AFB, supporting operations. ZANTOP 757 engaged in some great reminiscences about those days; this pilot flew flights into Patrick in the old days, and the 133.475 ATC was controlling flights back then. Nice to hear them chat and to feel the nostalgia of my days during the Gemini missions and the Saturn-Apollo moon-landing flights. I used to monitor the action right from the beach in those days. BOLT 13: KC-135R, MacDill 6AMW. 10:03pm: En route to Homestead. [133.475, 119.825, 132.25] AL STERN Satellite Beach FL (28-11N 80-36W) monitoring Patrick AFB (KCOF) NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Fac (KX68) Avon Park Bombing Range (KAGR) Cape Canaveral AFS (KXMR) JSTARS E-8 Acft Integration Facility, Melbourne IAP (KMLB) Worldwide Military HF Communications Life Member: Missile, Space and Range Pioneers. http://hometown.aol.com/allanstern/m...age/index.html (My Freqs) http://hometown.aol.com/scanaddict/index.html (My Equipment)
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#24
May 23rd 04, 11:47 AM
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After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, fudog50
confessed the following: I dunno Juvat, you tell me, what is their next strike? Hmmmm, how 'bout Athens Greece? Maybe Boston MA... It's not worth even arguing anymore, people are gonna do what they want because they have inflated ego's and because they can. Respectfully, ego has ZERO to do with the question or the answer. You assumed that Allan's posting of his log of military callsigns (and aircraft type) is accurate. You also conclude this information is a piece of the puzzle that may lead to a terrorist strike on something (you don't speculate on what). Allan's hobby is hardly the lynchpin in some possible terrorist strike. And most people that have never been on the pointy end will ever understand. Ummm, are you telling us you're a SEAL? In a previous life I had the honor of strapping a green & tan/green & gray twin engine J-79 powered and a gray single engine F-100 powered aerospace training device to my keester. Today I drive around on the pointy end of a twin engine 757. Personally I hope the islamist ****s target the military and not civilians...that's what the military gets paid for, plus the military gets to shoot back. But you're right in a sense, I don't understand any of your "hand wringing or the wailing and knashing of teeth," WRT to Allan's posts. Juvat
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#25
May 23rd 04, 12:02 PM
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After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, fudog50
confessed the following: Miso, It's not the intercepting of the message that worries me, no problem there. It's what is then done with it that disturbs me,,, By the way Advanced Narrow Band Digital Voice Terminal in itself is not scrambled, just a means of SATCOM. There are a few systems used by us, including DAMA, which includes wideband, but the associated crypto gear is what "scrambles" it. This is too funny to pass up. Ummm, were you the guy lamenting about posting information about our techniques? And here you've decided that this does NOT violate OPSEC...this is a hoot! How do you know how a foreign spook will get his info? Our current enemy (terrorists) might get it anywhere. Hmmm if I were an spook maybe I'd challenge your knowledge and say "you don't know what the f*ck you're talking about," and hope your ego gets in the way and you share a little more of your information, nothing classified mind you. Too funny. This is just another piece of the puzzle, and under OPSEC guidelines, is just wrong. (read up on OPSEC procedures then tell me how irresponsible I am) LOL...clearly the information you shared has no value because you would never violate OPSEC protocols. Juvat
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#26
May 23rd 04, 04:51 PM
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After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, fudog50
confessed the following: Here is one for starters, I'm sure you will get all defensive about it, I don't make the guidelines, but here are some of them. You realize of course that FOUR times in this thread. YOU have reposted information that you feel is violating OPSEC. So in a sense you PERSONALLY have put those individuals at risk...please report yourself Jethro Gibbs (Mark Harmon) and the rest of the guys on Navy NCIS. Juvat
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#27
May 23rd 04, 05:08 PM
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In article , fudog50
wrote: Here is one for starters, I'm sure you will get all defensive about it, I don't make the guidelines, but here are some of them. http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/a021202b.html That is a Department of Energy site, and perhaps it might be more on-point to have DoD Instructions, Air Force Regulations, etc. Yet, here is a partial quote: Assessment of Risks Vulnerabilities and specific threats must be matched. Where the vulnerabilities are great and the adversary threat is evident, the risk of adversary exploitation is expected. Therefore, a high priority for protection needs to be assigned and corrective action taken. Where the vulnerability is slight and the adversary has a marginal collection capability, the priority should be low. Application of the Countermeasures Countermeasures need to be developed that eliminate the vulnerabilities, threats, or utility of the information to the adversaries. The possible countermeasures should include alternatives that may vary in effectiveness, feasibility, and cost. Countermeasures may include anything that is likely to work in a particular situation. The decision of whether to implement countermeasures must be based on cost/benefit analysis and an evaluation of the overall program objectives. In other words, countermeasures such as remaining completely silent are meant to be applied when a risk can be characterized. In an earlier posts, I described, from the standpoint of how an analyst would use this material, that the risk is quite low.
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#28
May 23rd 04, 08:48 PM
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I took a look at the article. The deal here is Al or civilians in
general don't know anything in the sense that they don't know when that plane will be arriving or dispatched. A guy with a scanner only has knowledge of the present AND nobody in the military gave him that knowledge. The assumption is whatever Al is doing can be done by the enemy, though probably not as good of a job as Al does. fudog50 wrote in message . .. Here is one for starters, I'm sure you will get all defensive about it, I don't make the guidelines, but here are some of them. http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/a021202b.html On 18 May 2004 03:17:15 GMT, (AllanStern) wrote: Monday, 17 May 2004 Interesting comms today: some concerning one of the nation's newest acft, the F/A-22 now at Tyndall AFB, and some about the good old days when "The Real Stuff" was going on at Cape Canaveral, and I was there. AIR TRANSPORT 400: DC-8, Little Rock (USAF Contractor) 8:58am: Lands Patrick. Later departs to Antigua, then to Ascension - both USAF Eastern Test Range downrange sites. [133.75] N4667B: CE-208B Cessna Caravan, US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air Wing, Patrick AFB. 9:17am: Departs Patrick. 2:50pm: Lands Patrick. [133.75] HAWK 85; F/A-18D, Beaufort MCAS VMFA(AW)-533 9:44am: Transitions area to Mayport NAF [269.3, 273.55] MAKOs 11, 12: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS 10:01am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range. [292.2, 138.125] SHARK 21: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS 10:25am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range. 10:45am: RTBs to HST. [292.2, 307.1, 139.8] AX 186: C-130T, Andrews AFB VR-53 "Capitol Express" 10:31am: Area transition. Might be C-40 acft replacing VR-53's C-130Ts, as noted by Sandy in Colo recently. [133.475, 132.15] BRONCO 01: OV-10D, US State Dept US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air Wing, Patrick AFB. 10:45am: Departs Patrick (flight of 2). 4:12pm: Lands Patrick. [133.75] AKULA 31: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS 10:52am: Single ship, arrives at Avon Park Bombing Range. [292.2, 307.1] JOLLYs 11, 12: HH-60G Pave Hawk Helos, Patrick AFB 920RQW 11:51am: Departs Patrick; approaches at KMLB, Patrick. [269.375] PJ 610: P-3C, Whidbey Island NAS VP-69 "Totems" Sqdn 12:10pm: Lands Patrick. [269.375] HQ 475: SH-60B, Mayport NAF HSL-46 "Grandmasters" Sqdn 12:30pm: Area transition. [132.65] VDA 4813: AN-124, Volga Dnepr (Contractor) 2:30pm: Departs NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Facility. This huge Ukrainian transport had RONd previous night after bringing large aerospace cargo. Note RON at SLF instead of CCAFS whose runway is closed for construction. [128.55, 132.65, 124.8, 133.3] VAMPIRE 72: F/A-22, Tyndall AFB 325FW 43FS 2:45pm: Touch and go at Patrick on apparent fam flight through area; remains at low altitude (and therefor VHF freqs). This is my first snag of comms from an F/A-22. Was a bit too low and fast for me to get into my camera window. Tyndall is USAF's only F/A-22 schoolhouse; so I expect to see more of them. Made a wonderful shallow swooping pass over my house off of Patrick's Rnwy 20 before heading south along the coast. I LIKE this plane. Looks like it loves to roll. [133.75, 1312.65, 132.25] SHARKs 21, 22, 23: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS 3:00pm: Strafing at Avon Park Bombing Range. [292.2, 285.725, 139.8] MAKO 11 Flight: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS 3:00pm: Hitting tgts at Avon Park. 3:04pm: MAKO 11 has to RTB HST with problem. 3:40pm: Balance of flight RTBs. [292.2, 285.725, 307.1, 269.3, 239.25, 370.9, 322.5] SHARK 89: C-130. 3:39pm: Area transition, to waypoint Nassau. [119.825] LIMA LIMA 38: P-3C Jacksonville NAS VP-30 "Pro's Nest" Sqdn. 3:45pm: Area transition. [133.475] ZANTOP 757: Zantop Intl (Charter), Ypsilanti MI 5:27pm: Area transition. Those of us who were here in the 1960s Hey-days of the space program, remember the ever-present Zantop acft at Patrick AFB, supporting operations. ZANTOP 757 engaged in some great reminiscences about those days; this pilot flew flights into Patrick in the old days, and the 133.475 ATC was controlling flights back then. Nice to hear them chat and to feel the nostalgia of my days during the Gemini missions and the Saturn-Apollo moon-landing flights. I used to monitor the action right from the beach in those days. BOLT 13: KC-135R, MacDill 6AMW. 10:03pm: En route to Homestead. [133.475, 119.825, 132.25] AL STERN Satellite Beach FL (28-11N 80-36W) monitoring Patrick AFB (KCOF) NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Fac (KX68) Avon Park Bombing Range (KAGR) Cape Canaveral AFS (KXMR) JSTARS E-8 Acft Integration Facility, Melbourne IAP (KMLB) Worldwide Military HF Communications Life Member: Missile, Space and Range Pioneers. http://hometown.aol.com/allanstern/m...age/index.html (My Freqs) http://hometown.aol.com/scanaddict/index.html (My Equipment)
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#29
May 24th 04, 08:10 AM
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Get off the fence Robey.
On Sun, 23 May 2004 10:47:23 GMT, Robey Price wrote: After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, fudog50 confessed the following: I dunno Juvat, you tell me, what is their next strike? Hmmmm, how 'bout Athens Greece? Maybe Boston MA... It's not worth even arguing anymore, people are gonna do what they want because they have inflated ego's and because they can. Respectfully, ego has ZERO to do with the question or the answer. You assumed that Allan's posting of his log of military callsigns (and aircraft type) is accurate. You also conclude this information is a piece of the puzzle that may lead to a terrorist strike on something (you don't speculate on what). Allan's hobby is hardly the lynchpin in some possible terrorist strike. And most people that have never been on the pointy end will ever understand. Ummm, are you telling us you're a SEAL? In a previous life I had the honor of strapping a green & tan/green & gray twin engine J-79 powered and a gray single engine F-100 powered aerospace training device to my keester. Today I drive around on the pointy end of a twin engine 757. Personally I hope the islamist ****s target the military and not civilians...that's what the military gets paid for, plus the military gets to shoot back. But you're right in a sense, I don't understand any of your "hand wringing or the wailing and knashing of teeth," WRT to Allan's posts. Juvat
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#30
May 24th 04, 08:11 AM
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You have no idea what you are talking about Robey, go back to
sleep,,,,yawn On Sun, 23 May 2004 11:02:03 GMT, Robey Price wrote: After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, fudog50 confessed the following: Miso, It's not the intercepting of the message that worries me, no problem there. It's what is then done with it that disturbs me,,, By the way Advanced Narrow Band Digital Voice Terminal in itself is not scrambled, just a means of SATCOM. There are a few systems used by us, including DAMA, which includes wideband, but the associated crypto gear is what "scrambles" it. This is too funny to pass up. Ummm, were you the guy lamenting about posting information about our techniques? And here you've decided that this does NOT violate OPSEC...this is a hoot! How do you know how a foreign spook will get his info? Our current enemy (terrorists) might get it anywhere. Hmmm if I were an spook maybe I'd challenge your knowledge and say "you don't know what the f*ck you're talking about," and hope your ego gets in the way and you share a little more of your information, nothing classified mind you. Too funny. This is just another piece of the puzzle, and under OPSEC guidelines, is just wrong. (read up on OPSEC procedures then tell me how irresponsible I am) LOL...clearly the information you shared has no value because you would never violate OPSEC protocols. Juvat
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