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#61
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"Peter Twydell" wrote in message ... In article , Keith Willshaw writes The Meteor Mk 1 certainly had its flaws too but later marks were much improved and cleared for higher mach numbers. On June 14 1946 a Meteor F4 set a world record of 990.971 km / hr . The mach limit for Meteor's in squadron service was set at 0.8 IRC. Keith, I'm surprised at you. It was 7 September. 14 June saw the death of John Logie Baird, the launch of the last Sunderland, and a significant event in our family, especially for my mother and me. Quite right June 14 1946 was the date of the first trial of the Martin Baker ejector seat. Keith |
#62
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Ed Rasimus wrote in message Great story. My comments--you can get away with that in training ACM,
but if it were for real you'd have to have "cojones al piedra" to pull the trick. Assurance that your R-Max is the same for the bad guys based pm intel takes a lot of confidence. Second, I'm surprised that a Harrier can stay with a Phantom "in mil power on our diesel J-79s". Third, I don't think I'd have the faith that my staunch Marine allies would make the vertical conversion in a Harrier against a Tom in full blow pursuit of the Phantoms. Finally, your pitch back, acquisition and rapid FOXing shows a bit of befuddlement from the Nasal Radiators, since they should have been face shooting you at the same rate. All that said, it sounds like a bold plan well-executed. My own experience in low-tech vs high-tech ACM often did the same thing--a vertical rather than horizontal split of the element. Seems that young aggressive warriors fixate on the first target and only sporadically search for the second (despite the training artificiality of knowing all the players). They search in sweep for the remainder, but seldom scroll up and down to find the other threat. Well, it was a while ago - and as any good story, has gotten better in the retelling - but the gist is correct. The reference to "Mil Power" was that we didn't go to Idle/Min AB to kill our smoke on the run-in, instead ran in at a tactical speed that the Harriers (fast little AV-8Cs not big slow Bs, I think) could stay with, leaving a nice big smoke trail for the Toms to see! But you are absolutely right about this being a "training ACM sortie" kind of thing - the whole point was to find a way to get the Harriers into the fight unobserved, tie up the Tomcats in a turning fight, then play 7th Cavalry and save the day. That day the plan worked. I always felt that a lot of our ACM missions were wasted (probably unavoidably) on canned setups, predictable 1V1 or 2V2, etc. Good for practicing basics, but no relation to the real thing, as described in all the Red Baron reports, WW2 books, etc. Then once and awhile (usually during some exercise like Cope Thunder or Red Flag) a fight would develop that would be uncannily similar to "the real thing". And it usually didn't involve any fancy tactics, just (surprise!) being at the right place at the right time and catching some guy looking the wrong way. Case in point - A Cope Thunder in the mid 80s, huge furball off the coast West of Iba, and we are coasting out from Crow Valley after dropping some inert Mk-82s on rattan targets. No real tactics, just stay low, skirt the outside of the furball, and shoot an F-5 that pops out in front of us. Then back to the deck and beat feet for home, low on gas as usual. Hardly had to turn at all, just a quick stab-out lock up and a couple of Fox-1s, then sweating out the illumination period. When things get complicated and messy, the fancy tactics are the first things to go. Then it's a matter of SA, systems knowledge, crew coordination, and luck - not necessarily in that order! I guess it reinforces what Dudley has already mentioned extensively here--the training, experience and quality of the driver will often compensate for the technology of the system. ABSOLUTELY!!!! Kirk |
#63
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F104 in the late 1950s - no competition. Tofferi won the TAC gunnery
meet back then in a C-model. Here's a tale I got second hand from an 'enemy' pilot. He was flying a MiG21 against USAF fighters in a serious test back in the late 60s. He saw and engaged an F4 - only as he closed he saw a F104a (Dash 19 engine) zoom straight up off the F4's wing - it had been hiding on the wing of the F4 and his GCI controller of course never knew it was there. He told me he thought 'Aw s--t!" and now he had to fight both an F4 which was diving in and under him and a 104 he'd just lost sight of. BTW the 21 pilot was a Edwards test school graduate and when I knew him he was 737 chief pilot for Air Florida. One of my good friends (squadron mate) was flying the 104. That guy told me they could run both the 17 and 21 out of gas and stay out of danger while doing it. At full mil in the Zipper the 17 couldn't stay with them. .97 on the deck in mil (1.05 at 25000) and the ability to climb away from either aircraft while sustaining 4G was very handy. FWIW a straight wing will always have better fuel numbers than any swept wing - and the deltas are fuel hogs with G's on. Walt BJ |
#64
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to go along with Dudley and Kirk I reiterate what I always told my
students - in aviation what you don't now won't hurt you - it will kill you. And in aerial combat you have to have the facts at your fingertips. 'Let's see now' won't get it. For the same reason frequent real intensive maximum performance training is mandatory if you have to be ready to fight at a moment's notice. And you st be perfectly honest in your critique of your performance and take remedial action when you find weaknesses. God (fate, chance, karma, Buddha) has a way of giving you a no-s--t tac eval every now and then and if you screw up badly enough . . . Cheers - Walt BJ |
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