If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
"Dr. J Dana Eckart" wrote in message du...
On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 18:46:19 -0500, Bart wrote: On the first convulsion, she pushed the collective down. I'm used to that by now, because no matter how many times I tell people to stay away from it, they always seem to sit on it. Then she did something no one's ever done. With each convulsion forward she'd lean into the cyclic. She did it with such force that it surprised the hell out of me. You would of thought I was playing tug of war with a 220lb guy for how much force it took to hold the stick steady. WHY would you leave the copilot controls installed when carrying a non-pilot passenger in that seat? What happened to you is the very reason I was told that you want to ALWAYS remove controls unless the person sitting in that seat is qualified to use them. Dr J. In working machines we often didn't have time to remove the duals, or it was just too much trouble to do so. I've always guarded the controls carefully when I had ANYONE sitting where they could reach the active controls. Yes it can get hairy at times but I've never had one taken away from me nor ever lost control of one due to someone else moving the controls accidently or on purpose. Got roughly 8000 hours working in rotorcraft spread out since 1967. Flyinrock |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
WHY would you leave the copilot controls installed when carrying a non-pilot passenger in that seat? What happened to you is the very reason I was told that you want to ALWAYS remove controls unless the person sitting in that seat is qualified to use them. Removing the co-pilot controls requires an A&P, and theres frequently not one available when you need one to do it. Most airplanes don't have the ability to remove them at all. A friend of mine ground looped in his Waco because a pax jammed his foot on a pedal in an attempt to brace themselves during a landing. I'm avery guarded when theres a non-pilot in the left seat, and the briefing always contains a series of "don't touch this or else" messages. Non-pilots tend to listen to messages like this because they're generally a little afraid of the cockpit. My larger concerns are making sure that they don't carry anything into the cockpit that might wind up jamming the controls, and ensuring that they're very aware that the little red inflation balls on their life vest can snag on the harness causing inadvertent inflation. Just because someone's a pilot doesnt keep'em from doing stupid stuff. On a 1100nm ferry flight a month ago I took a friend of mine who's a 737 captain for Continental. Standard warnings issued during briefing, he still managed to sit on the collective four times during the trip. Each time he was really embarrassed and and it became the subject of a ribbing or two since then. Bell made it very clear in their training class that installation and removal of the secondary controls was not an authorized pilot activity. They also said the same is true of for doors. I'm not sure I agree with either of these, but in the case of control installation I understand why they have the policy; There was an accident where the PIC was in the left seat and I think there was a beginner in the right. The cyclic came out in-flight as a result of mis-installation, the result was not good. Bart |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
"Bart" wrote in message ... WHY would you leave the copilot controls installed when carrying a non-pilot passenger in that seat? What happened to you is the very reason I was told that you want to ALWAYS remove controls unless the person sitting in that seat is qualified to use them. Removing the co-pilot controls requires an A&P, and theres frequently not one available when you need one to do it. Most airplanes don't have the ability to remove them at all. A friend of mine ground looped in his Waco because a pax jammed his foot on a pedal in an attempt to brace themselves during a landing. I'm avery guarded when theres a non-pilot in the left seat, and the briefing always contains a series of "don't touch this or else" messages. Non-pilots tend to listen to messages like this because they're generally a little afraid of the cockpit. My larger concerns are making sure that they don't carry anything into the cockpit that might wind up jamming the controls, and ensuring that they're very aware that the little red inflation balls on their life vest can snag on the harness causing inadvertent inflation. Just because someone's a pilot doesnt keep'em from doing stupid stuff. On a 1100nm ferry flight a month ago I took a friend of mine who's a 737 captain for Continental. Standard warnings issued during briefing, he still managed to sit on the collective four times during the trip. Each time he was really embarrassed and and it became the subject of a ribbing or two since then. Bell made it very clear in their training class that installation and removal of the secondary controls was not an authorized pilot activity. They also said the same is true of for doors. I'm not sure I agree with either of these, but in the case of control installation I understand why they have the policy; There was an accident where the PIC was in the left seat and I think there was a beginner in the right. The cyclic came out in-flight as a result of mis-installation, the result was not good. Bart I sure see your point Bart. Our local pilot/owner is an A&P which probably explains his ability to fly a piston helo for fun since he can do the maintenance himself. Whenever he flys a passenger for fun he still leaves the controls in both middle and left seat since it's probably more trouble to remove them and possibly more dangerous too. I was intently watching the cyclic and pedal movement during my flight around the patch which after the stories I''ve heard here probably worried the pilot to no end. He asked me in a a deadly serious tone to not touch anythingG Of course all I wanted to do was get a visual clue of just how much or little the controls were moved in flight and compare it to my limited time as a fixed wing passenger. Thanks to all of you for telling about some wonderful and scary flying experiences! Larry |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 05:27:30 -0500, Bart wrote:
WHY would you leave the copilot controls installed when carrying a non-pilot passenger in that seat? What happened to you is the very reason I was told that you want to ALWAYS remove controls unless the person sitting in that seat is qualified to use them. Removing the co-pilot controls requires an A&P, and theres frequently not one available when you need one to do it. Most airplanes don't have the ability to remove them at all. Interesting. My helicopter time is all in R-22s and the controls are relatively easy to remove and as far as I know, can be done by the PIC. [I haven't flown in quite some time.] How common is it for aircraft with removable controls to require an A&P to do the removal/installation? -- J Dana Eckart, PhD, PP-RH, KA4EVL | People who think that life couldn't be Virginia Bioinformatics Institute | better lack vision, and those who think | it couldn't be worse lack imagination. |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
My flight manual does not specifically state that removal is prohibited
or allowed. The FARS state which activities may be performed by a pilot, and if I remember correctly they disallow alteration of a flight control. I'm not 100% certain, but my interpretation would be that no matter how easy it is to remove them or how common the practice of it being done by a pilot, it legally requires an A&P. Bart Dr. J Dana Eckart wrote: Interesting. My helicopter time is all in R-22s and the controls are relatively easy to remove and as far as I know, can be done by the PIC. [I haven't flown in quite some time.] How common is it for aircraft with removable controls to require an A&P to do the removal/installation? |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
"Dr. J Dana Eckart" wrote in
u: Interesting. My helicopter time is all in R-22s and the controls are relatively easy to remove and as far as I know, can be done by the PIC. [I haven't flown in quite some time.] How common is it for aircraft with removable controls to require an A&P to do the removal/installation? The general rule is, if it takes a tool to remove it, an A&P is required. Especially for flight controls. Improper work on flight controls can kill you in a heartbeat. Often less. -- Regards, Stan |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
If the procedure for removing dual controls is in the flight manual (which
it isn't) then it's in the maintenance manual which is intended for the authorized maintenance "entity" be that a repair station or a mechanic with at least an airframe rating. This goes for aircraft registered in the "normal" category. "Experimentalists" as we know are in their own world. |
#28
|
|||
|
|||
|
#29
|
|||
|
|||
Yes, definately, the weight & balance section is definately and area that an
inspector is subject to check. Whether he (or she) will check it or not is a crapshoot. Further than that, as far as the "checkboxe"s are concerned I'm not quite sure if you are asking me a question or what you are asking. Few weight and balance sheets are exactly the same. I will ASSume that if the check box next to dual controls is checked, that would mean that that aircraft WAS WEIGHED with the duals installed. If subsequently removed, then the weight, station, and moment of the duals would need to be known in order to correctly re-calculate W & B. I would say that on most aircraft, that change is negligible whether they're in or out. BUT it is a required (and many more times than not, a neglected) calculation on installation and removal after the "as weighed" CG has been determined. Pilots make weight and balance recalculations all the time. My comments earlier in this thread were regarding WHO is authorized to install and remove the duals. Anyone performing the task must be following a PROCEDURE. Where is the procedure? As I said, it's probably in the Maintenance Manual, making it a Maintenance procedure. Mechanics are supposed to make flight manual entries for W & B also. There would be a certificate number entry possibility. Hope this helped! Bob |
#30
|
|||
|
|||
Bob wrote,
Yes, definitely, the weight & balance section is definitely and area that an inspector is subject to check. Whether he (or she) will check it or not is a crapshoot. Further than that, as far as the "checkboxe"s are concerned I'm not quite sure if you are asking me a question or what you are asking. Hi Bob Not asking any questions, just responding with what I recalled on the operations of removing dual flight controls. Few weight and balance sheets are exactly the same. I will ASSume that if the check box next to dual controls is checked, that would mean that that aircraft WAS WEIGHED with the duals installed. If subsequently removed, then the weight, station, and moment of the duals would need to be known in order to correctly re-calculate W & B. I would say that on most aircraft, that change is negligible whether they're in or out. BUT it is a required (and many more times than not, a neglected) calculation on installation and removal after the "as weighed" CG has been determined. Pilots make weight and balance recalculations all the time. My comments earlier in this thread were regarding WHO is authorized to install and remove the duals. Anyone performing the task must be following a PROCEDURE. Where is the procedure? As I said, it's probably in the Maintenance Manual, making it a Maintenance procedure. Mechanics are supposed to make flight manual entries for W & B also. There would be a certificate number entry possibility. Hope this helped! Bob Yes you are correct, it takes an a/p to sign off the installation. The check boxs I was referring to was sep up in our flight manuals either on the equipment list ( items a/c was weighed with ) or form C. There was an IN and Out box with the weight and arm of the item listed. Remove an item and you check the out box and recalculate the W & B , reverse for the installation. You should be able to find the procedure under chapter 27 ( flight controls ) in the maintenance manual. As you say this procedure is usually neglected about as much as removing the doors which also weigh little but to be legal should be figured into the W & B. Roy |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|