Kerry didn't join the National Guard to avoid combat.

From: Tank Fixer
Date: 9/6/2004 11:26 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id: t

In article ,
on 05 Sep 2004 17:33:35 GMT,
ArtKramr attempted to say .....

Bush did that.

Prove it


You have GOT to be kidding. Art would rather lie and slander his betters than
provide proof. I define his "betters" as anyone who respects others who didn't
have combat experience. It makes me think art didn't respect anyone in his own
family.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

From: Jack

To set the record straight, the real threat of airborne
invasion during the cold war was always from the north, thus NORAD.
Trying to make a couple of aircraft in Cuba sound like a viable threat
is really grasping for straws. However, in the extremely unlikely
event of a couple Cuban aircraft 'invading' the U.S.... Southern
Command and interceptor units out of Florida would have been tasked,
not some champaign unit in Texas. No matter how you attempt to spin it....
George W. Bush was in that unit specifically to
avoid combat.

I have news for you, if a cerdible threat over the polar cap existed some ANG
units would have been federalized and souhern units would have been deployed.

Bush was in a chamgaigne unit to avoid the draft. Plain and simple.

At least her served and was honourbly discharged.


Scoring the lowest possible passing score, 25%, on his pilots aptitude
test, then leap frogging in front of 500 other qualified applicants
who applied for slots before he did wasn't simply a 'stroke of luck'
for George W. Bush! You're either extremely naive or so blinded by
partisanship you refuse to acknowledge the obvious.

Did it ever occur to you Bush may simply have done it all on his own? Since no
verifiable proof otherwise exists this may be the case. Where did you get the
25% score on his AFOQT?

No, the aircraft
doesn't care if you're rich or poor or have political connections.
However, some of those in positions of authority, who made the
selections as to who got assigned to the few available slots obviously
did. The aircraft is simply a machine, it didn't do the recruiting!
Also, if you're implying Texas politics isn't and hasn't been
'bizzare' for the past 100 years, you have a lot to learn about Texas
and politics.

That still doesn't prove Bush got special treatment. I'm not saying he didn't,
but either way he did serve.

When mandatory drug testing was implemented as part of all flight
physicals, Bush refused to take his required physical and grounded
himself. Shortly afterwards he disappeared. You connect the dots.


Mandatory drug testing in conjunction with flight physicals, both in
the CONUS and overseas began in April, 1972. The flight physical
George W. Bush dodged was scheduled in August, 1972.

Flight physicals are expensive, Bush wasn't going to fly anymore, there's no
proof he was doing illegal drugs at the time etc.

You amateur history revisionists crack me up!

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

"ArtKramr" wrote

A fighter piot who never fought is like a bombardier who never flew a bomb run
or a navigator who never plotted a course. WORTHLESS

Juvenile logic.

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 08:40:24 -0600, Jack wrote:

On 06 Sep 2004 18:53:52 GMT, (B2431) wrote:

From: Jack

When mandatory drug testing was implemented as part of all flight
physicals, Bush refused to take his required physical and grounded
himself.

Drug testing is a comman function, not medical. They would not have tested for
drugs suring a flight physical.

Bush was no longer filling a flying slot so no flight physical was required.

Then again, you probably already knew that since you have done such
comprehensive research.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Random drug testing of the entire force and mandatory drug testing in
conjunction with flight physicals, at both CONUS and overseas bases,
was implemented in April, 1972. Not as command prerogative, but by
Air Force directive following DoD guidance. George W. Bush was
filling a flying slot until failing to appear for his annual flight
physical in August, 1972. And yes, I have done the research, thank
you...I was also there at the time.

I was there in 1972 on the enlisted side and don't remember "Random
drug testing of the entire force" until sometime around 1980. Didn't
really seem to get going until after 1975 and then it was airman under
four at first and then age I believe was another point. Around 1980
it was everyone. I know I handed out the slips for random testing to
some of my first termers, but never to anyone else even after the
change up to 1982 when I retired.

"Bob" wrote

I was there in 1972 on the enlisted side and don't remember "Random
drug testing of the entire force" until sometime around 1980. Didn't
really seem to get going until after 1975 and then it was airman under
four at first and then age I believe was another point. Around 1980
it was everyone. I know I handed out the slips for random testing to
some of my first termers, but never to anyone else even after the
change up to 1982 when I retired.

That's pretty much how I remember it. In the late 70's during formation,
I could identify enlisted drug users 100% of the time without a fancy test.

Dan wrote:

I define his "betters" as anyone who respects others who didn't
have combat experience.

Art doesn't respect the service of some who *have* seen combat. So far, in just
the last week, he has denigrated the service of a WWII C-54 pilot and my
participation in Iraqi Freedom. Personally I was honored to join the many who
Art has slandered in the past...kind of felt left out.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Kerry didn't join the National Guard to avoid combat.
From: Jack
Date: 9/7/2004 7:45 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:32:41 -0700, Steve Hix
wrote:

In article ,
Jack wrote:

Bush was in a chamgaigne unit to avoid the draft. Plain and simple.

A unit that was, at the time he joined, sending pilots on tours to Viet
Nam, among other places, in the Palace Alert program.

You keep forgetting that...

No, I didn't forget that. F-102 jocks flying recce in Viet Nam needed
500 hours in the aircraft. George W. Bush had less than 300 when he
refused his annual flight physical. My point was not against those
flying the F-102 in the ANG. Many of them did stand up and fight when
called.. George W. Bush simply wasn't one of them.


To know the neocon chickenhawks ....... watch what they do .... not
what they say...... Jack



A fighter piot who never fought is like a bombardier who never flew a bomb
run
or a navigator who never plotted a course. WORTHLESS


Hey Art, up until very recently, most of our fighter pilots had never seen
combat. Are they all worthless? And I have news for you, most pilots pray
that they never have to see combat. Those guys must really be worthless, no?

"ian maclure" wrote
On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 16:54:39 -0500, Bob Coe wrote:
"ArtKramr" wrote

A fighter piot who never fought is like a bombardier who never flew a bomb run
or a navigator who never plotted a course. WORTHLESS

Juvenile logic.

As stated previously, Art is in his second childhood.

I think you're right.

I don't think he's ever heard of IQT (Initial Qualification Training) or
MQT (Mission Qualification Training), where you actually become a
navigator or operational pilot, after being evaluated as to what they do.

I know there must be thousands of "fighter" pilots who never saw combat their
whole career. I'm glad the nuclear alert bomber crews never flew a combat
mission, and I wouldn't call them worthless in capital letters.

I think this Kramer guy must be his son or grandson. I think the real Kramer
is dead, or in an old folks home.

Dave wrote:

Ever hear of the Cold War? How about a sailor on a
missile submarine or a SAC crewman? Were they worthless also?

Uhh ...Dave..let me introduce to Art Kramer...the answer to your question is
"yes". In fact, there are people who served in combat, even in WWII, that
Kramer says were worthless.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 13:20:14 -0400, "George Z. Bush"
wrote:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 08:45:04 -0600, Jack wrote:

On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:32:41 -0700, Steve Hix
wrote:

In article ,
Jack wrote:

George W. Bush had less than 300 when he
refused his annual flight physical. My point was not against those
flying the F-102 in the ANG. Many of them did stand up and fight when
called.. George W. Bush simply wasn't one of them.

And, wrong again. You need to read slowly and try not to move your
lips. Bush had approximately 300 hours when he VOLUNTEERED for Palace
Alert--a program to deploy ANG interceptor pilots worldwide (including
SEA) to support USAF operations. The desired minimum was 500 hours,
but could routinely be waived to meet requirements.

Since you've already done the research, did you happen to come across an
explanation as to why the 500 hour desired minimum that could routinely be
waived wasn't waived in his case?

No need to waive, since the F-102 was pulled out of SEA by that time.
But, when he went to UPT and when he qualified operationally, the
airplane was still active in the combat theater and was often manned
by ANG forces.

(Snip)

And, where exactly did you say you were flying during those years?

Who? Me? I was enjoying retired life in North Carolina, having already done my
bit during three wars. Surely you don't have a problem with that, do you?

No, George, I know where you were and respect your credentials. I was
asking Jack, who mentioned that he had been "aircrew" but gave us
nothing more. Certainly, if he were not, that would not disqualify him
from an opinion, but since he mentioned it in the forum I thought it
might be interesting to explore his aviation experience. Nothing more,
nothing less.




Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
Both from Smithsonian Books
***www.thunderchief.org