Class C Airspace Discussion

A couple of months ago, here and elsewhere, there was a discussion
about the nature of the requirement to contact ATC before entering
Class C airspace. The specific issues over which there was disagreement
were (i) whether contact with any ATC facility was sufficient, or
whether contact with the specific TRACON responsible for the airspace
in question was required; and (ii) whether a pilot receiving VFR
advisories from an ARTCC would be in violation of the FARs if he
continued into Class C airspace without having first been handed off to
the TRACON controlling that airspace.

To obtain guidance on these matters, I wrote a letter to the FAA Chief
Counsel seeking an opinion. I today received a reply, and I shall post
a link to this and to the original enquiry in PDF format once I have
scanned the document into a suitable format. The essence of the reply
is that (i) it is necessary to be in contact with the specific TRACON
responsible for the Class C rather than just any old ATC facility; and
(ii) that the receipt of VFR advisories does not absolve a pilot of his
responsibility to contact that TRACON before entering the airspace and
that he would therefore be in violation if he entered without so doing.

As I say, links to PDFs to follow.

Interesting query. At first I wondered how this situation ever arises,
then I remembered my VFR flight into Troutdale (TTD) which is in a
class D airspace that partially underlies and actually seems to invade
the overlying Class C of Portland (PDX). I was on flight following
from the southwest and couldn't find the TTD airport, so PDX approach
was kindly giving me help... "it's about 2 miles at 12 o'clock."
(Don't laugh; they're not always easy to find.) When he told me to
contact TTD tower, I got a rather exasperated reply on my callin that I
should have called them earlier. I meekly replied that I was with PDX
approach until then, and he said "Oh well, that was ok."
So, I guess I technically busted the Class D by not contacting them
while I was still talking to approach (within Class C) but was already
within 5 miles of the Class D airport. Frankly, since I was on radar
with approach control I felt it was safer for everyone to stay with
them until told to contact the local tower at TTD.

No, the approach controller was responsible for either coordinating
your transition through the class D or handing you off. In truth, I
believe there are areas of the class D that approach has agreements to
send arrivals.

The confusion may come from that fact that if you
are receiving flight following (or IFR) from center or
some other facility and you fly through the class C
you are ok, it is there responsibility to coordinate
with the class C controllers for you or to hand you off.

IFR, yes, but flight following, no. That's the whole point of the FAA's
reply. If you're getting flight following, it's still your
responsbility to know where you are and to make sure you're talking to
the TRACON before you enter the Class C. If Center doesn't hand you
off, that doesn't absolve you.

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...
The confusion may come from that fact that if you are receiving flight
following (or IFR) from center or some other facility and you fly
through the class C you are ok, it is there responsibility to
coordinate with the class C controllers for you or to hand you off.

But its being their responsibility doesn't mean that it isn't still the
pilot's responsibility too (in the case of VFR flight following). In fact,
the AIM (3-2-1d) says "It is the responsibility of the pilot to insure that
ATC clearance or radio communication requirements are met prior to entry
into Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace. *The pilot retains this
responsibility when receiving ATC radar advisories*." (emphasis added).

So even when I'm receiving flight following, I assume I need to talk to the
tower or approach controller of the facility whose airspace I'm about to
transit, except if the chart notes otherwise (for example, in the case of
several satellites whose Class D airspace is underneath Boston's Class B,
the chart says to contact Boston Approach to transit the Class D above a
certain altitude). In practice, though, I can't recall any time that the
controller giving me radar advisories wasn't already the one I needed to be
in contact with.

--Gary

"it's about 2 miles at 12 o'clock."
(Don't laugh; they're not always easy to find.) When he told me to
contact TTD tower, I got a rather exasperated reply on my callin that I
should have called them earlier. I meekly replied that I was with PDX
approach until then, and he said "Oh well, that was ok."

The tower at Janesville, WI (JVL) actually made Mary turn around and
leave the airspace, fly three miles out, and call in AGAIN after
Rockford Approach (RFD) dumped her into their Class D airspace. JVL
and RFD certainly weren't on the same team that day.

We now dump Rockford Approach when we're ten miles out from Janesville.

--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:

The tower at Janesville, WI (JVL) actually made Mary turn around and
leave the airspace, fly three miles out, and call in AGAIN after
Rockford Approach (RFD) dumped her into their Class D airspace. JVL
and RFD certainly weren't on the same team that day.

We now dump Rockford Approach when we're ten miles out from Janesville.

I have read of pilots experiencing this at Caldwell, New Jersey, a class D
airport here in the busy northeast US. IMO, a crazy and potentially
dangerous way (added frequency congestion, distracted controller, 180
degree turn in busy airspace) to demonstrate a point.


--
Peter

Enquiry and reply can be found at...

http://www.mikeg.net/library/files/classc

LOL...

You're name isn't "Kris" is it? You don't fly on online on VATSIM do you?

One of the people I know who flies online couldn't find TTD!

In all seriousness, I fly out of Salem (SLE) and have flown in the Class
C airspace quite a bit. Seattle Center typically will hand you off or
dump you when heading north towards the PDX Charlie airspace. Your only
option is to contact PDX Approach. Yes, PDX Approach is VERY friendly.
I even toured the approach and tower facilities at PDX. It's quite
interesting. Too bad they have the age limits on controlling, since I
could probably change careers for it.

I was on my long cross country as a student pilot and began heading the
wrong direction from TTD. I intended to head towards Mulino (4S9), but
instead was heading about 30-40 degrees east of the heading and was
moving towards Mt Hood (still a ways off). I saw it after a short bit
and as I was making my correction, PDX Approach contacted me to let me
know I was heading the wrong direction, too.

Btw, the Class D does not "invade" the Class C. It just butts up
against the Class C. You are not "busting" any Class D while in the
Class C because you are in contact with the TRACON (e.g. PDX Approach)
and they coordinate handing you off to other facilities while in the
Class C, such as TTD Tower.

PDX, TTD, and HIO all are part of the STARS system at PDX, so all 3
airports have a radar display. Salem, by the way, does not have any
radar display in its tower cab. They are strictly a visual tower.
Apparently, the ZSE radar facility due west of Salem does not cover
Salem that well and Salem is too far south for the PDX (RTX) radar to cover.

Have a great day!

Chris


skym wrote:
Interesting query. At first I wondered how this situation ever arises,
then I remembered my VFR flight into Troutdale (TTD) which is in a
class D airspace that partially underlies and actually seems to invade
the overlying Class C of Portland (PDX). I was on flight following
from the southwest and couldn't find the TTD airport, so PDX approach
was kindly giving me help... "it's about 2 miles at 12 o'clock."
(Don't laugh; they're not always easy to find.) When he told me to
contact TTD tower, I got a rather exasperated reply on my callin that I
should have called them earlier. I meekly replied that I was with PDX
approach until then, and he said "Oh well, that was ok."
So, I guess I technically busted the Class D by not contacting them
while I was still talking to approach (within Class C) but was already
within 5 miles of the Class D airport. Frankly, since I was on radar
with approach control I felt it was safer for everyone to stay with
them until told to contact the local tower at TTD.

On 10 Apr 2006 18:29:51 -0700, "Mike Granby" wrote
in .com::

The essence of the reply is that
(i) it is necessary to be in contact with the specific TRACON
responsible for the Class C rather than just any old ATC facility;


http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text....1.3.10.2.4.17
§ 91.130 Operations in Class C airspace

(c) Communications. Each person operating an aircraft in Class C
airspace must meet the following two-way radio communications
requirements:

(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way
radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC
in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States)
providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and
thereafter maintain those communications while within that
airspace.

From the words of the regulation above it is clear that the words 'the
ACT facility' refer to the ATC facility with responsibility for flight
within their Class C airspace. But it could have been worded so that
there was less ambiguity.

and (ii) that the receipt of VFR advisories does not absolve a pilot of his
responsibility to contact that TRACON before entering the airspace and
that he would therefore be in violation if he entered without so doing.

It is difficult to anticipate a situation in which Radar Traffic
Advisory Service within a Class C airspace is being provided by a
facility other than the one which has responsibility for that Class C
airspace.

As I say, links to PDFs to follow.

Thanks for your effort in seeking official clarification of this
issue, sharing it here, and making the original documents available
on-line.