FAR:Safety Pilot & High Performance/Complex?

as long as he's at least a PPL, rated in category and type, current,
including medical, endorsed and is required for the flight he may log PIC
time. He doesn't have to be an ATP or CFI or God. Mere mortals can
qualify.
--
Jim Burns III

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"Andrew Koenig" wrote in message
...
Robert In what respect do they differ? If it is my airplane and I am
Robert the pilot flying with a hood on, I tell the safety pilot that
Robert I am the PIC and I log PIC on two accounts. First I am the
Robert sole manipulator of the controls and second because I AM the
Robert PIC. He logs SIC. Second case, I am the pilot flying and I
Robert tell the safety pilot that he is the PIC for the flight. I log
Robert PIC since I am the sole manipulator of the controls AND he
Robert logs PIC because he really is the PIC. See my original
Robert statement.

You're certainly right when you're talking about yourself because you
have CFI and ATP certificates. But I still remember reading
somewhere, probably in AOPA Pilot, that for rest of us mere mortals,
only the sole manipulator of the controls can log PIC.

--
Andrew Koenig,

I got my endorsement sometime in the late 80s and mine is one endorsement.
It was a ink stamp that the instructor had that called it a "High
Performance/Complex Airplane Endorsement". I did how ever do all my
training in a non high performance 200hp Piper Arrow.
--
Jim Burns III

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"Ace Pilot" wrote in message
om...
FAR 61.31 says that no endorsement is needed if you have logged PIC
time in that kind of aircraft (complex or high performance) prior to
August 4, 1997. Does anyone remember what the required endorsement(s)
was/were prior to this date? Were there 2 endorsements, or was there
only one covering complex and high performance aircraft?

More than once, I've wondered what the regs were prior to some change.
Does anyone know of a web site that allows you to look up what the
regs were on a certain date?

More than once, I've wondered what the regs were prior to some change.
Does anyone know of a web site that allows you to look up what the
regs were on a certain date?


Yes, I believe the FAA site itself lets you enter a date and get the regs as of
that date. Search for it - it's not that easy to find but I know I've run
across it. It goes by some non-obvious name (or did when I saw it)

Jose

(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

As you have already seen, lots of people seem to remember private
interpretations or letters from the FAA ruling one way or another.

The regulations say that you have to be rated in category and class to act
as safety pilot. That means a pilot certified for airplane single engine
land can act as safety pilot in any single engine land airplane, from a
Pilatus PC-12 to a Cessna 152. The appropriate FAR says:

(b) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight
unless --

(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at
least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings
appropriate to the aircraft being flown.



There is no regulatory requirement that you be able to act as PIC in order
to log PIC under any circumstances. In fact the FARs are quite clear about
when you may log PIC:


(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A recreational, private, or
commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time
during which that person --

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the
pilot is rated;

(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an
aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type
certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is
conducted.



A strict reading of these two regulations would indicate that a private
pilot holding a certificated for single engine land airplanes may log PIC
for the time he is acting as safety pilot in a complex or high performance
airplane whether he is signed off for those airplanes or not. Others in the
FAA or anywhere else may differ in their personal opinions and may even have
written letters or articles stating their opinions, but those letters and
articles are just that: opinions. It should be remembered that many of these
people are attempting to enforce their opinion when they could not get their
ideas enacted in the regulations. They lost in committee and review, so now
they are attempting to mold public behavior through threats and
intimidation.

If the regulations do not mean what they say, then the regulations need to
be amended. Until then, the regulations have the force of law.

All of that being the case, my own personal opinion is that any pilot would
be very foolish to attempt to act as safety pilot in any airplane that he
was not fully qualified to operate. I think the regulations should be
changed. But right now the regulations are specific: you may act as safety
pilot and log PIC while doing it. There are no loopholes, gray areas, or
private interpretations here that make a convincing argument that the
regulations do not permit it.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
A strict reading of these two regulations would indicate that a private
pilot holding a certificated for single engine land airplanes may log PIC
for the time he is acting as safety pilot in a complex or high performance
airplane whether he is signed off for those airplanes or not.

No a strict reading doesn't say that. He may be a safety pilot, as that requires
only ratings. He can not log safety pilot time as PIC time as he can not legally
be PIC.

Ron is entirely correct on this. I have heard this many times during
pilot examiner school in OKC. The policy statements explained to me
from AFS-640 are very clear about this. You must be totally qualified
and legal to fly the bird by yourself in order to log PIC as a safety
pilot. (medical, category and class, flight review, and proper 61.31
endorsements) The regulations themselves are clear: In order to BE
the PIC and be the safety pilot, (and thats the only way a non-CFI,
non-manipulator can log PIC time in single pilot airplanes as a safety
pilot), you must meet ALL the prerequisites.


On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:47:33 -0400, "Ron Natalie"
wrote:


"C J Campbell" wrote in message
A strict reading of these two regulations would indicate that a private
pilot holding a certificated for single engine land airplanes may log PIC
for the time he is acting as safety pilot in a complex or high performance
airplane whether he is signed off for those airplanes or not.

No a strict reading doesn't say that. He may be a safety pilot, as that requires
only ratings. He can not log safety pilot time as PIC time as he can not legally
be PIC.

I'd agree with that. I got an additional endorsement when I got checked out
in a 182RG a couple years ago. However strange it may seem, the FBO's
insurance statement requires 100 hours in retractables or 10 hours
instruction in the 182RG, it doesn't mention high performance time
requirements. Obviously gear up landings are more common than torque roll
stall/spins on go-around.
--
Jim Burns III

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"Bill Zaleski" wrote in message
...
You are only grandfathered with the 1997 changes according to the
airplane type that you got the previously lumped complex/high
performance endorsement in. A close look at 61.31 (f) (2) indicates
that the Arow endorsement will not suffice for high performance. The
biggest reason that you might want to get re-endorsed are for
insurance purposes.



On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:41:11 -0500, "Jim" wrote:

I got my endorsement sometime in the late 80s and mine is one
endorsement.
It was a ink stamp that the instructor had that called it a "High
Performance/Complex Airplane Endorsement". I did how ever do all my
training in a non high performance 200hp Piper Arrow.

No a strict reading doesn't say that. He may be a safety pilot, as that
requires
only ratings. He can not log safety pilot time as PIC time as he can not
legally
be PIC.


Right. Which brings me back to a question I had earlier. Is there ever a
circumstance that a pilot can log PIC time when he is not certified,
endorsed or current in that aircraft? I can't think of a case but maybe I'm
overlooking something.
--
Jim Burns III

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"Ace Pilot" wrote in message
om...
FAR 61.31 says that no endorsement is needed if you have logged PIC
time in that kind of aircraft (complex or high performance) prior to
August 4, 1997. Does anyone remember what the required endorsement(s)
was/were prior to this date? Were there 2 endorsements, or was there
only one covering complex and high performance aircraft?

It was basically the same as it is now, but not written as clearly. It
combined the "complex" and "high performance" in a single paragraph, using
the words "as appropriate" to cover the two different situations. While the
regulation wasn't intended as such, many people took it to mean that an
endorsement for a "complex" sufficed for flying a "high performance"
airplane, and vice a versa.

I presume that the grandfather clause in the new regulation is intended to
try to acknowledge that ambiguity. Even prior to the change, no one should
have been flying without the appropriate endorsement.

Pete

"Jim" wrote in message news
Right. Which brings me back to a question I had earlier. Is there ever a
circumstance that a pilot can log PIC time when he is not certified,
endorsed or current in that aircraft? I can't think of a case but maybe I'm
overlooking something.
--
Sure there is. There are three ways to log PIC time (for those not CFIs or ATPs).

1. Sole occupant of the aircraft.
2. Sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which you are rated.
3. Pilot in command of a multipilot operation (under the regs/type certificate)

#1 doesn't require you to be rated in the aircraft. Your instructor can sign you off to go
solo on any pilot certificate (student or otherwise).

#2 doesn't require currency or endorsement requirements to be met provided there is
someone else aboard who is actually PIC.