Blue Ridge Crash

At 17:31 15 April 2011, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 4/15/2011 2:33 AM, Peter F wrote:
At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote:

I am also a big fan of launchin
with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years
wit
good results.

Nick Kennedy
Grob Twin Astir TF
LS-6 XS


Consider the two scenarios.

1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the
release.
You drop a wing pull off, start again.

2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on
the
release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your
glider
to bits.

Which one makes you feel more of an idiot?

I think it's idiotic to be towing in an area where dropping a wing will

result in a ground loop, and that resulting groundloop will "smash your

glider to bits". But let's say you've already made those mistakes, and

consider scenario #3:

You start the launch with your hand on the open airbrakes, not on the
release. You DON'T drop a wing because the open spoilers give you much
better control, you DON'T pull off, you DON'T groundloop, and you
DON'T
smash your glider to bits. In fact, the launch proceeds smoothly, no
drama, nobody in danger or inconvenienced.

I used open spoilers for the last few years I owned my ASW 20, and I
never dropped a wing once I started doing that; before then, I did drop
a wing ocasionally. I NEVER ground looped, however, because the tip skid

just slid along the pavement.

Eric --Thank you for that thoughtful post!
There is alot of great info on this site, sometimes you just need a finer
mesh filter. And by the way my post was for aero towing, not winch
towing.
Nick Kennedy

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what

you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

On Apr 15, 11:04*am, Papa3 wrote:
On Apr 15, 5:33*am, Peter F wrote:









At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote:

I am also a big fan of launchin
with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years wit
good results.
Nick Kennedy
Grob Twin Astir TF
LS-6 *XS

Consider the two scenarios.

1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the release.
You drop a wing pull off, start again.

2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on the
release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your glider
to bits.

Which one makes you feel more of an idiot?

What does it say in your flight manual bout launching?

Have you actually bothered to read that bit of the manual?

PF

Or, you read the flight manual which says "Additional aileron
effectiveness during initial takeoff roll may be achieved by extending
airbrakes, retract airbrakes before leaving ground" [LS4 flight manual
p 4-8]. * *So in that case, *should you feel like an idiot because you
dropped the wing for NOT following this advice?

There's no need to get snarky about this. It's a tough problem that
deserves reasoned discussion. * And, unfortunately, there's probably
not one single approach that works. * Different aircraft have
different traps, and the preflight routine needs to be adapted
accordingly. *For example, I teach somewhat different routines with
students in the 2-33 vs. the Grob 103 based on the peculiarities of
each and the checklists we've established. * * Ultimately, the
preflight checklist for each aircraft needs to be followed carefull.
It's that discipline of following checklists and anticipating the 2-3
critical problems that happen early in the tow that needs to be
drilled home.

My 0.02.

P3

Day is coming,when BRSA will notice that: observers (ground crew) who
watched this Blanik in trouble with open spoilers, all they needed to
save his life was hand held radio.
Still too expensive toy,almost like parachutes in club ships.
RW

On Fri, 15 Apr 2011 07:03:46 -0700, Dan Marotta wrote:

Do you actually tow with your hand on the release?

Yes - for both aero-tow and winch and for the same reasons in both
cases: if the tip hits the ground, RELEASE. Good practise on any grass
field and standard doctrine on my club's field.

What happens at 100 feet when you hit a good bump and
accidentally release?

Hand ON the release doesn't mean "Fingers wrapped round the knob and
release cable pre-tensioned". If your fingers are straight and resting
against the knob a bump can't cause an accidental release, but curling
fingers round the knob and pulling is still instant.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Apr 15, 9:04*pm, RW wrote:
On Apr 15, 11:04*am, Papa3 wrote:









On Apr 15, 5:33*am, Peter F wrote:

At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote:

I am also a big fan of launchin
with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years wit
good results.
Nick Kennedy
Grob Twin Astir TF
LS-6 *XS

Consider the two scenarios.

1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the release.
You drop a wing pull off, start again.

2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on the
release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your glider
to bits.

Which one makes you feel more of an idiot?

What does it say in your flight manual bout launching?

Have you actually bothered to read that bit of the manual?

PF

Or, you read the flight manual which says "Additional aileron
effectiveness during initial takeoff roll may be achieved by extending
airbrakes, retract airbrakes before leaving ground" [LS4 flight manual
p 4-8]. * *So in that case, *should you feel like an idiot because you
dropped the wing for NOT following this advice?

There's no need to get snarky about this. It's a tough problem that
deserves reasoned discussion. * And, unfortunately, there's probably
not one single approach that works. * Different aircraft have
different traps, and the preflight routine needs to be adapted
accordingly. *For example, I teach somewhat different routines with
students in the 2-33 vs. the Grob 103 based on the peculiarities of
each and the checklists we've established. * * Ultimately, the
preflight checklist for each aircraft needs to be followed carefull.
It's that discipline of following checklists and anticipating the 2-3
critical problems that happen early in the tow that needs to be
drilled home.

My 0.02.

P3

Day is coming,when BRSA will notice that: *observers (ground crew) who
watched this Blanik in trouble with open spoilers, all they needed to
save his life was hand held radio.
Still too expensive toy,almost like parachutes in club ships.
RW

The radio might not help you. A group of us at a local contest
watched as the airbrakes opened on a ship as it became airborne and
stayed that way for about a minute or more. The tuggie was struggling
to climb and came perilously close to hitting some large cactus. I
was the first to call on the radio, followed by a chorus of others.
All our calls went unanswered and produced no effect on the glider.
After the flight, I asked the pilot why he didn't respond to our
calls. The answer "I turn the radio down during launch to avoid
distraction".

I always keep my radio on the airport frequency until climbing out.
Perhaps the culprit of whom I speak would like to defend his position
- he knows who he is!

Mike

Mike

On Apr 16, 10:23*am, Mike the Strike wrote:
On Apr 15, 9:04*pm, RW wrote:



On Apr 15, 11:04*am, Papa3 wrote:

On Apr 15, 5:33*am, Peter F wrote:

At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote:

I am also a big fan of launchin
with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years wit
good results.
Nick Kennedy
Grob Twin Astir TF
LS-6 *XS

Consider the two scenarios.

1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the release.
You drop a wing pull off, start again.

2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on the
release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your glider
to bits.

Which one makes you feel more of an idiot?

What does it say in your flight manual bout launching?

Have you actually bothered to read that bit of the manual?

PF

Or, you read the flight manual which says "Additional aileron
effectiveness during initial takeoff roll may be achieved by extending
airbrakes, retract airbrakes before leaving ground" [LS4 flight manual
p 4-8]. * *So in that case, *should you feel like an idiot because you
dropped the wing for NOT following this advice?

There's no need to get snarky about this. It's a tough problem that
deserves reasoned discussion. * And, unfortunately, there's probably
not one single approach that works. * Different aircraft have
different traps, and the preflight routine needs to be adapted
accordingly. *For example, I teach somewhat different routines with
students in the 2-33 vs. the Grob 103 based on the peculiarities of
each and the checklists we've established. * * Ultimately, the
preflight checklist for each aircraft needs to be followed carefull.
It's that discipline of following checklists and anticipating the 2-3
critical problems that happen early in the tow that needs to be
drilled home.

My 0.02.

P3

Day is coming,when BRSA will notice that: *observers (ground crew) who
watched this Blanik in trouble with open spoilers, all they needed to
save his life was hand held radio.
Still too expensive toy,almost like parachutes in club ships.
RW

The radio might not help you. *A group of us at a local contest
watched as the airbrakes opened on a ship as it became airborne and
stayed that way for about a minute or more. *The tuggie was struggling
to climb and came perilously close to hitting some large cactus. *I
was the first to call on the radio, followed by a chorus of others.
All our calls went unanswered and produced no effect on the glider.
After the flight, I asked the pilot why he didn't respond to our
calls. *The answer "I turn the radio down during launch to avoid
distraction".

I always keep my radio on the airport frequency until climbing out.
Perhaps the culprit of whom I speak would like to defend his position
- he knows who he is!

Mike

Mike

Maybe you can't let go of the spoiler handle and release, but I can.
Do you actually tow with your hand on the release? What happens at
100 feet when you hit a good bump and accidentally release?

Er ... you land safely?

It's great for you that you fly at a field where a release at 100 feet
is a non-event. Some of the places I've flown would not be so kind.
Where I currently fly, a release at 100 feet would mean landing
straight ahead on pavement - truly a non-event, however, this is not
so everywhere we fly.

It's clear to me (and always has been) that each and every one of us
knows what's best for the rest of us. ;-P

Er ... you land safely?

It's great for you that you fly at a field where a release at 100 feet
is a non-event. Some of the places I've flown would not be so kind.
Where I currently fly, a release at 100 feet would mean landing
straight ahead on pavement - truly a non-event, however, this is not
so everywhere we fly.

It's clear to me (and always has been) that each and every one of us
knows what's best for the rest of us. ;-P

I agree, at my local field a release at under 100 feet will put you into
the trees or power lines unless you want to try for the narrow road which
may or may not work out for you...

We dont all fly in over wide open fields or desert.

On Apr 16, 2:56*pm, Tom Stock wrote:
Er ... you land safely?

It's great for you that you fly at a field where a release at 100 feet
is a non-event. *Some of the places I've flown would not be so kind.
Where I currently fly, a release at 100 feet would mean landing
straight ahead on pavement - truly a non-event, however, this is not
so everywhere we fly.

It's clear to me (and always has been) that each and every one of us
knows what's best for the rest of us. *;-P

I agree, at my local field a release at under 100 feet will put you into
the trees or power lines unless you want to try for the narrow road which
may or may not work out for you...

We dont all fly in over wide open fields or desert.

Off field in desert is some of the worst, close in or far away. The
region 12 safety seminar is an eye opener. You have to know where the
safe landing spots are before you go.

On Apr 17, 5:07*am, Dan Marotta wrote:
On Apr 16, 10:23*am, Mike the Strike wrote:





On Apr 15, 9:04*pm, RW wrote:

On Apr 15, 11:04*am, Papa3 wrote:

On Apr 15, 5:33*am, Peter F wrote:

At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote:

I am also a big fan of launchin
with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years wit
good results.
Nick Kennedy
Grob Twin Astir TF
LS-6 *XS

Consider the two scenarios.

1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the release.
You drop a wing pull off, start again.

2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on the
release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your glider
to bits.

Which one makes you feel more of an idiot?

What does it say in your flight manual bout launching?

Have you actually bothered to read that bit of the manual?

PF

Or, you read the flight manual which says "Additional aileron
effectiveness during initial takeoff roll may be achieved by extending
airbrakes, retract airbrakes before leaving ground" [LS4 flight manual
p 4-8]. * *So in that case, *should you feel like an idiot because you
dropped the wing for NOT following this advice?

There's no need to get snarky about this. It's a tough problem that
deserves reasoned discussion. * And, unfortunately, there's probably
not one single approach that works. * Different aircraft have
different traps, and the preflight routine needs to be adapted
accordingly. *For example, I teach somewhat different routines with
students in the 2-33 vs. the Grob 103 based on the peculiarities of
each and the checklists we've established. * * Ultimately, the
preflight checklist for each aircraft needs to be followed carefull..
It's that discipline of following checklists and anticipating the 2-3
critical problems that happen early in the tow that needs to be
drilled home.

My 0.02.

P3

Day is coming,when BRSA will notice that: *observers (ground crew) who
watched this Blanik in trouble with open spoilers, all they needed to
save his life was hand held radio.
Still too expensive toy,almost like parachutes in club ships.
RW

The radio might not help you. *A group of us at a local contest
watched as the airbrakes opened on a ship as it became airborne and
stayed that way for about a minute or more. *The tuggie was struggling
to climb and came perilously close to hitting some large cactus. *I
was the first to call on the radio, followed by a chorus of others.
All our calls went unanswered and produced no effect on the glider.
After the flight, I asked the pilot why he didn't respond to our
calls. *The answer "I turn the radio down during launch to avoid
distraction".

I always keep my radio on the airport frequency until climbing out.
Perhaps the culprit of whom I speak would like to defend his position
- he knows who he is!

Mike

Mike
Maybe you can't let go of the spoiler handle and release, but I can.
Do you actually tow with your hand on the release? *What happens at
100 feet when you hit a good bump and accidentally release?

Er ... you land safely?

It's great for you that you fly at a field where a release at 100 feet
is a non-event. *Some of the places I've flown would not be so kind.
Where I currently fly, a release at 100 feet would mean landing
straight ahead on pavement - truly a non-event, however, this is not
so everywhere we fly.

If you are flying regularly at a place where you have dead zones in
your takeoff profile then I'd say you are an accident waiting to
happen.

We used to have a lot of open space around our airfield. Now it is
full of houses. That was ok in itself while we were flying lightweight
Blaniks, but then in the mid 90's we started to get heavy glass two
seaters -- first a Janus and then two Grobs. We started having some
launches (on hot and still days) only a few feet over the fence.

We traded our Super Cubs in and got Pawnees. Now we always have a safe
height over the fence.

Don't fly at places where your life depends on that rope not breaking.
Seriously.

On Apr 17, 4:34*am, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Apr 17, 5:07*am, Dan Marotta wrote:









On Apr 16, 10:23*am, Mike the Strike wrote:

On Apr 15, 9:04*pm, RW wrote:

On Apr 15, 11:04*am, Papa3 wrote:

On Apr 15, 5:33*am, Peter F wrote:

At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote:

I am also a big fan of launchin
with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years wit
good results.
Nick Kennedy
Grob Twin Astir TF
LS-6 *XS

Consider the two scenarios.

1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the release.
You drop a wing pull off, start again.

2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on the
release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your glider
to bits.

Which one makes you feel more of an idiot?

What does it say in your flight manual bout launching?

Have you actually bothered to read that bit of the manual?

PF

Or, you read the flight manual which says "Additional aileron
effectiveness during initial takeoff roll may be achieved by extending
airbrakes, retract airbrakes before leaving ground" [LS4 flight manual
p 4-8]. * *So in that case, *should you feel like an idiot because you
dropped the wing for NOT following this advice?

There's no need to get snarky about this. It's a tough problem that
deserves reasoned discussion. * And, unfortunately, there's probably
not one single approach that works. * Different aircraft have
different traps, and the preflight routine needs to be adapted
accordingly. *For example, I teach somewhat different routines with
students in the 2-33 vs. the Grob 103 based on the peculiarities of
each and the checklists we've established. * * Ultimately, the
preflight checklist for each aircraft needs to be followed carefull.
It's that discipline of following checklists and anticipating the 2-3
critical problems that happen early in the tow that needs to be
drilled home.

My 0.02.

P3

Day is coming,when BRSA will notice that: *observers (ground crew) who
watched this Blanik in trouble with open spoilers, all they needed to
save his life was hand held radio.
Still too expensive toy,almost like parachutes in club ships.
RW

The radio might not help you. *A group of us at a local contest
watched as the airbrakes opened on a ship as it became airborne and
stayed that way for about a minute or more. *The tuggie was struggling
to climb and came perilously close to hitting some large cactus. *I
was the first to call on the radio, followed by a chorus of others.
All our calls went unanswered and produced no effect on the glider.
After the flight, I asked the pilot why he didn't respond to our
calls. *The answer "I turn the radio down during launch to avoid
distraction".

I always keep my radio on the airport frequency until climbing out.
Perhaps the culprit of whom I speak would like to defend his position
- he knows who he is!

Mike

Mike
Maybe you can't let go of the spoiler handle and release, but I can.
Do you actually tow with your hand on the release? *What happens at
100 feet when you hit a good bump and accidentally release?

Er ... you land safely?

It's great for you that you fly at a field where a release at 100 feet
is a non-event. *Some of the places I've flown would not be so kind.
Where I currently fly, a release at 100 feet would mean landing
straight ahead on pavement - truly a non-event, however, this is not
so everywhere we fly.

If you are flying regularly at a place where you have dead zones in
your takeoff profile then I'd say you are an accident waiting to
happen.

We used to have a lot of open space around our airfield. Now it is
full of houses. That was ok in itself while we were flying lightweight
Blaniks, but then in the mid 90's we started to get heavy glass two
seaters -- first a Janus and then two Grobs. We started having some
launches (on hot and still days) only a few feet over the fence.

We traded our Super Cubs in and got Pawnees. Now we always have a safe
height over the fence.

Don't fly at places where your life depends on that rope not breaking.
Seriously.

Unfortunately, there are many places where events combine to create
"dead zones". An extra heavy glider, high and hot conditions, plus an
anemic tug can do it. The first to notice will be instructors wanting
to do a 200' rope break maneuver with a student when they realize they
are too far from the runway to pull the release safely.

With rampant development, landing areas around airports are fast
disappearing.

This means we have to look carefully at our tow gear.

If you look at FAR 91.9 you'll find it requires you to operate your
glider in compliance with the POH/AFM. Looking in the manual, (unless
it's a Schweizer) you will find it demands a specific aero tow weak
link. For example, the ASK-21 requires exactly 600 daN link or a Tost
blue link for aero tow. If you use a very strong rope, a 750 daN Tost
red link will be required at the tug.

Using really strong ropes with exactly the right (legal) weak links
will help avoid unnecessary PTT failures. Or, you could consider a
winch where you are always in gliding distance of the runway.

Bill D