How capable are Saudi F-15s?

Hobo wrote:

When the first batch of F-15s were sold to Saudi
Arabia the Israelis
made a big issue of their defense needs and
so the the aircraft were
technologically compromised due to this pressure.
The one change I
remember most clearly is that this first batch
was supposed to be unable
to carry bombs. It seems that since then the
Israelis have let up and we
have sold the Saudis much more advanced versions
of the F-15, including
versions that are capable bombers. However,
the information I have seen
on this is spotty. Just how capable are Saudi
F-15s? I am not referring
to the pilots, crews or upkeep, just the hardware
at the time of
purchase.

TIA
72 birds were sold to Saudi and began delivery in 1995. Two dozen are optimized
for air combat, while 48 were optimized for air-to-mud. Downtuned EW (not
good against Western gear, for example)
However, CFTs, MER racks, GBU-10/12, GBU-15, AGM-65, plus CBUs and Mk-82/84
in quantity. That's for the S version
The Cs delivered in the early 80s had external tanks, and the EW mods, but
otherwise just as capable as the USAF Cs. One known kill against Iran in
1984 and one probable from the same incident (F-4Es were the victim(s)).
Two kills against Iraqi Mirage F-1s in ODS.

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On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 23:44:43 GMT, Matt Wiser wrote:

72 birds were sold to Saudi and began delivery in 1995. Two dozen are optimized
for air combat, while 48 were optimized for air-to-mud. Downtuned EW (not
good against Western gear, for example)

I wonder why SA bought them? Certainly, if I was trying to buy
something and the shop would only sell me second-rate gear, I would
say "fine, I'll take my custom to Mr Sukhoi (or Mr Mikoyan or Mr
Dassault...) down the street".

But I sometimes get the opinion that the job of the Saudi armed
forces is something other than being effective in a war.

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"phil hunt" wrote

I wonder why SA bought them?

Excellent question. Saudis buy things just to have the best, and their just
sitting on the ramp is OK with them.

I've flown with Egyptians, and Saudis, and the Saudi has no aggressive
tendencies, and must be pushed to the fight. Egyptians on the other hand,
are as aggressive warriors as any western pilots.

The Saudis are staunch anti-communists, and would never purchase a
product from a communist. Today, they would very likely buy Russian,
as most Russian planes are built to NATO specs (AGE, etc).

"phil hunt" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 23:44:43 GMT, Matt Wiser
wrote:
I wonder why SA bought them? Certainly, if I was trying to buy
something and the shop would only sell me second-rate gear, I would
say "fine, I'll take my custom to Mr Sukhoi (or Mr Mikoyan or Mr
Dassault...) down the street".

Because at the time the Saudi's purchased the F-15's, MiG had nothing even
comparable to a "second rate" F-15.

"Gene Storey" wrote in message

"phil hunt" wrote

I wonder why SA bought them?

Excellent question. Saudis buy things just to have the best, and
their just sitting on the ramp is OK with them.

I've flown with Egyptians, and Saudis, and the Saudi has no aggressive
tendencies, and must be pushed to the fight. Egyptians on the other
hand, are as aggressive warriors as any western pilots.

I seem to recall a Saudi F15 kill on a Mirage during GW-II ('91);
essentially the US AWACS and other fighters in the area "set up" the kill
for the Saud Eagle, and then held back while he engaged. At least that's
the spin ABC News put on it. I don't mean that negatively, though.

--
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Remove the X's in my email address to respond.
"Damn you Silvey, and your endless fortunes." - Stephen Weir
I hate furries.

"Bill Silvey" wrote

I seem to recall a Saudi F15 kill on a Mirage during GW-II ('91);
essentially the US AWACS and other fighters in the area "set up" the kill
for the Saud Eagle, and then held back while he engaged. At least that's
the spin ABC News put on it. I don't mean that negatively, though.

That is a true story. The Saudi wet his pants and was screaming like a
woman, but the damn F-1 was painting like a barn on his scope, and
sooner or later all he had to do was pull the trigger.

The case of the U.S.S. Stark, the Saudis never even got off the ground.
Their 5 minute alert birds were told to stand-down and let the Iraqi
return without a fight. The AWACS crew created an international
incident in labeling the Saudis "...a bunch of cowards."

"Gene Storey" wrote in message

"Bill Silvey" wrote

I seem to recall a Saudi F15 kill on a Mirage during GW-II ('91);
essentially the US AWACS and other fighters in the area "set up" the
kill for the Saud Eagle, and then held back while he engaged. At
least that's the spin ABC News put on it. I don't mean that
negatively, though.

That is a true story. The Saudi wet his pants and was screaming like
a woman, but the damn F-1 was painting like a barn on his scope, and
sooner or later all he had to do was pull the trigger.

I recall that. The driver was *yelling* everything. And twice.

Pilot:"I CAN SEE HIM. I CAN SEE HIM."
Awacs: "You're weapons free."
Pilot:"TARGET LOCKED! TARGET LOCKED! FIRING! FIRING!" (I don't recall if
he called "fox" on the missile shoot or not.)

....or something to that effect.

The case of the U.S.S. Stark, the Saudis never even got off the
ground. Their 5 minute alert birds were told to stand-down and let
the Iraqi return without a fight. The AWACS crew created an
international incident in labeling the Saudis "...a bunch of cowards."

If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times. Saudi Arabia *is not*
an ally.

--
http://www.delversdungeon.dragonsfoot.org
Remove the X's in my email address to respond.
"Damn you Silvey, and your endless fortunes." - Stephen Weir
I hate furries.

On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 01:51:40 GMT, Gene Storey wrote:
"phil hunt" wrote

I wonder why SA bought them?

Excellent question. Saudis buy things just to have the best,

All the more reason why they wouldn't accept an inferiour version.

The Saudis are staunch anti-communists, and would never purchase a
product from a communist. Today, they would very likely buy Russian,
as most Russian planes are built to NATO specs (AGE, etc).

Russians weren't (by-and-large) communists in 1995. Certainly the
govmt wasn't.

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On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 21:57:05 -0400, Brian wrote:

"phil hunt" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 23:44:43 GMT, Matt Wiser
wrote:
I wonder why SA bought them? Certainly, if I was trying to buy
something and the shop would only sell me second-rate gear, I would
say "fine, I'll take my custom to Mr Sukhoi (or Mr Mikoyan or Mr
Dassault...) down the street".

Because at the time the Saudi's purchased the F-15's, MiG had nothing even
comparable to a "second rate" F-15.

MiG aren't the only people making aircraft. Saudi Arabia could have
bought a Su-27 derivative such as the Su-30. They could have bought
the Mirage 2000. If they wanted a bomber, they already operate the
Tornado so could have bought more of them. If they were willing to
wait a while, they could have ordered the Gripen, Rafale or Typhoon.
(For the last 2, Saudi money may well have accelerated development,
since defence cutbacks in European countries delayed it).

--
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Q: what's the most annoying thing about Usenet?

"phil hunt" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 21:57:05 -0400, Brian
wrote:

"phil hunt" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 23:44:43 GMT, Matt Wiser
wrote:
I wonder why SA bought them? Certainly, if I was trying to buy
something and the shop would only sell me second-rate gear, I would
say "fine, I'll take my custom to Mr Sukhoi (or Mr Mikoyan or Mr
Dassault...) down the street".

Because at the time the Saudi's purchased the F-15's, MiG had nothing
even
comparable to a "second rate" F-15.

MiG aren't the only people making aircraft. Saudi Arabia could have
bought a Su-27 derivative such as the Su-30.

It's not the same as the non export Su-27. Much like our Export F-15 has
some changes as well for export

They could have bought
the Mirage 2000.

Both the Su-27 and the F-15 would have it for lunch even in the export
version.


If they wanted a bomber, they already operate the
Tornado so could have bought more of them.

Great little Tactical Bomber but not a frontline fighter. Better to
purchase the export F-16 from the US and save a bundle.


If they were willing to
wait a while, they could have ordered the Gripen, Rafale or Typhoon.
(For the last 2, Saudi money may well have accelerated development,
since defence cutbacks in European countries delayed it).

One reason the Saudis may have chosen US is they could have taken Military
Hardware for Oil.