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#191
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On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 10:21:53 -0500, "Robert Henry"
wrote: If the arriving aircraft cancels IFR and proceeds direct to the field...that's different. Yes it is, but that wasn't the situation you initially described. In my experience, it is unusual for an aircraft to cancel IFR when arriving at a towered field. Does that happen frequently at your field? Now, if the tower was expecting an easterly departure, and the aircraft proceeds west according to the ODP, then what? If the a/c is departing IFR, with no particular alternate departure instructions, the tower should expect that the aircraft will fly the ODP. Again, if the tower is NOT expecting the IFR departure to fly the ODP, then they need proper training. In any event, I would expect that the tower would clear arriving VFR aircraft to enter the pattern in such a way as to not conflict with departing traffic. At towered airports where I have operated, in a situation similar to what you are now describing, the tower will usually issue advisories to both aircraft. It sure has not been unusual for me to depart an airport in VMC and have traffic arriving from many directions. Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) |
#192
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Robert Henry wrote: Sure, as long as the arrival remains IFR. If the arriving aircraft is cleared for the visual, the departing aircraft is probably not going to be released, Probably? I guarantee it, unless someone provides visual separation. If the arriving aircraft cancels IFR and proceeds direct to the field...that's different. Now, if the tower was expecting an easterly departure, and the aircraft proceeds west according to the ODP, then what? Well, since he cancelled IFR it doesn't matter. No, the tower is saying, we don't know what you are going to do, so it'd be nice if you would tell us. Are you saying that the tower is responsible for protecting the ODP? I don't believe that's the case, else they wouldn't have to request a release. The fact that a tower has to request a release has nothing to do with the ODP. That is simply what the tower and their approach control have worked out. I worked in the flatlands of North Dakota for a while, we had to get a release for every IFR departure. |
#193
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"Newps" wrote in message news:thfrb.147219$HS4.1197781@attbi_s01... Robert Henry wrote: Sure, as long as the arrival remains IFR. If the arriving aircraft is cleared for the visual, the departing aircraft is probably not going to be released, Probably? I guarantee it, unless someone provides visual separation. So it, possible, but most unlikely? Isn't that probably not. If the arriving aircraft cancels IFR and proceeds direct to the field...that's different. Now, if the tower was expecting an easterly departure, and the aircraft proceeds west according to the ODP, then what? Well, since he cancelled IFR it doesn't matter. Well, it would be nice if it did, too. It remains my hope that a midair in Class D airspace because the inbound aircraft was instructed (verbally or through omission of other instructions) to continue, and the outbound aircraft was proceeding on the inverse (ODP) heading is not going to be a career enhancing incident for the tower. In other words, "How did you not know that the departing aircarft was flying the ODP." No, the tower is saying, we don't know what you are going to do, so it'd be nice if you would tell us. Are you saying that the tower is responsible for protecting the ODP? I don't believe that's the case, else they wouldn't have to request a release. The fact that a tower has to request a release has nothing to do with the ODP. That is simply what the tower and their approach control have worked out. I worked in the flatlands of North Dakota for a while, we had to get a release for every IFR departure. Is it safe to conclude that if an aircraft departs IFR without a release that the ODP may not be protected at that time? I am certain there is a relationship, even if there are 100+ better reasons that most SOPs/LOAs require a coordinated release before departure. |
#194
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Robert Henry wrote: Well, since he cancelled IFR it doesn't matter. Well, it would be nice if it did, too. It remains my hope that a midair in Class D airspace because the inbound aircraft was instructed (verbally or through omission of other instructions) to continue, and the outbound aircraft was proceeding on the inverse (ODP) heading is not going to be a career enhancing incident for the tower. In other words, "How did you not know that the departing aircarft was flying the ODP." But he cancelled, so the tower controller is under no obligation to do anything. When I worked at the VFR tower we would simply say "traffic is one Cessna inbound from the NE, freq change approved." Is it safe to conclude that if an aircraft departs IFR without a release that the ODP may not be protected at that time? Sure, it may also be littered with VFR aircraft going the same direction. I am certain there is a relationship, even if there are 100+ better reasons that most SOPs/LOAs require a coordinated release before departure. All towers have an LOA with their approach control on how they will handle IFR traffic. Some class D's will have automatic releases on a few headings or within a pie. The pie will be some wedge fanning out from the departure end encompassing about 60 degrees. Most class D's will have to call for each release. Likewise the approach control will be required to inform the tower of each inbound and turn over comm by a certain point. Now if all IFR aircraft will be flying a certain same exact procedure then what you have is essentially nonradar airspace. When that happens there will only be one aircraft in the area at a time, whether that is a departure or an arrival. |
#195
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"Roy Smith" wrote in message ... Had a strange thing happen to me today. I filed IFR HPN - HFD (White Plains NY to Hartford CT). The route part of my clearance came back "radar vectors Carmel[VOR], V1, Hartford[VOR], Direct". Unless they made some major changes to the airway structure in the northeast recently, V1 does not go to HFD from CMK, V3 does. Usually out of HPN I would expect to get the Westchester-1 departure, but it wasn't in my clearance, and I when I read back the clearance without it, I got "readback correct". Seemed a little strange, but I went with the flow (I should have asked for clarification, I'm not sure why I didn't). The turn in the SID took us away from our first fix, so I guess I figured they were just doing us a favor or something with a shorter routing. We took off and I started climbing straight out. The HPN-1 has an almost 180-degree turn almost immediately. The guy I was with asked me why I wasn't making the turn and I said we weren't on the SID. I asked tower and they said I should be on the SID. Sounds like you were departing RWY 16, what vector did they issue prior to takeoff? So, what went wrong? Did I goof? Am I supposed to fly the SID (not a DP) even though it's not in the clearance? Is it more likely that it was in the clearance but I just didn't hear it and the controller didn't notice that it wasn't in the readback? Well, somebody goofed. Can't say for sure who it was without knowledge of standard procedures or hearing the tapes. You say it's unusual to not be issued the Westchester One departure, but you read the clearance back as issued and clearance delivery said it was correct. But since the clearance was "radar vectors Carmel" a heading should have been issued with the takeoff clearance. Was it? If one was not, and you weren't issued the departure procedure, you shoul have known something was amiss before taking the runway. |
#196
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